The following interview is a conversation we had with Khaled Hassounah, CEO and Founder of Ample, on our podcast Category Visionaries. You can view the full episode here: $290M Raised to Build the Future of EV Batteries

Khaled Hassounah
Absolutely, my pleasure. 

Brett
Super excited for our conversation here, and I’d love to begin with a quick summary of who you are and a bit more about your background. 

Khaled Hassounah
Absolutely. I’m the Co-Founder and CEO of Ample, which I’m sure we’ll talk a lot about today. I am an electrical engineer by training, got sucked into software startups very early on in my career. I was part of starting and growing a number of startups in the health space, in the education space, in the network and security space. But for the last nine years of my life, I’ve been focused on Ample, which is effectively in the transportation energy space. 

Brett
And how did you first get into startups? Then? What was that path that led to startups? And what was it about startups and. 

Khaled Hassounah
Tech that made you say, yeah, this. 

Brett
Sounds interesting, this looks cool, I’m going to go and dedicate my career to this. 

Khaled Hassounah
Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, one of the amazing things about startups is that you can hone in on the most important part of the problem, right? So for very early on, I was just very excited about solving problems, right? So I just wanted to jump in and solve the problem. And I was lucky enough in being involved in a startup very early on in my life. So I got a taste of that and was able to kind of experience it. And then I was also lucky enough that very early in my life I got sucked into a larger company that I worked with. It should remain nameless, but I worked there for like five months and I could immediately see the contrast. And that’s what kind of got me to see very clearly that I’m very much a startup guy. 

Khaled Hassounah
I don’t want to spend my time dealing with a lot of the complexities to prepare for being able to do something. I just want to just do something. And hence I just kind of, after that I just quit and I said, I just want to spend my life in startups and focusing really on as much of my time and effort and energy into actually solving the problem rather than dealing with the brokers. We need the other part, but it just wasn’t for me, and that’s not what I was excited about. 

Brett
When did you found your first company? Was that 2007 and was that Medhelp, or did you have another company before. 

Khaled Hassounah
That that you founded? Yeah, I was part of a team that started a company in Boston called iamlogic. It started in 2002. We were focused on instant messaging and networking at that time. We built a general platform that allows you to connect too many. I’m not going to get too much detail, but they connect multiple different protocols and networking layers together. And we got acquired by Symantec about four and a half years after starting that company. So that was my first real full on startup, from three people in a room to a successful multimillion dollar revenue kind of startup. And then after that I joined a different kind of startup, more nonprofit, out of the MIT media lab called one laptop per child. Focused more on education space and creating technology for education. Did that for a year and a half. 

Khaled Hassounah
Focus on deployment and being in the field in Africa, working with different governments and creating blueprints for deploying technology. And then after that I did Medhelp, which is kind of the company right before Ample started. 

Brett
What did you learn from that experience in selling that company to Merc? 

Khaled Hassounah
I would say maybe two key things are worth touching on here. One of them is that the first one is that healthcare sucks. It’s really, really hard, just for various reasons that I think today we don’t want to get into them, but there is just like a misalignment of incentives in healthcare that make it really hard. So I think that’s one thing I did learn. But other than that, when it comes to startups, I would say that a startup has a life of its own in a way. You have to kind of go through the process of understanding what is it that you’ll be able to contribute, how would you be able to solve the problem in the most optimal way possible, and then use that to create something meaningful that will scale. 

Khaled Hassounah
And it took us a while to wrap our heads around that in Medhelp. And just to give you a simple summary, within Medhelp, initially we built a health website that tracked the law of users, and we thought that our product was the users themselves. So were selling ads against kind of the platform and then very quickly realized our product was not the users, it was actually technology. So we end up abstracting that and started selling the technology as a platform to companies. So we had kind of companies like Walgreens and GE Health and Merck use that as the platform. So anyway, it took us a while to figure out what really is the product that we’ll be able to add value in. And then once we honed in on that, were able to start scaling and really creating something meaningful. 

Brett
And from the outside, these seem like very different businesses. So we talked about education and a nonprofit healthcare, and we’re going to get into your clean energy business here. So is there a common thread that is similar here across these different businesses, or how do you connect them all, or are they not connected? Is there not a common thread? 

Khaled Hassounah
I think the common thread has less to do with the industry and more to do with the process of thinking through conceptualizing and building startups. I’m a very strong believer that people who can build the best startups are people who come at it with a fresh perspective or come at the problem with a fresh perspective. Almost in each one of these spaces, at least, the companies I was involved in or was helping start, were companies that took an existing problem where a lot of people were trying to solve it in a certain way. And we almost took a completely unique approach to solving that problem. We had the luxury of being able to come not from within the industry and be able to kind of approach a problem in a totally different way than others would have. 

Khaled Hassounah
And now, of course, when you come into it, you have to be humble enough and understand that because you are not an expert in that space, you are going to have to learn a lot. You’re going to need to listen to the experts, you’re going to need to learn from them. And you shouldn’t assume that you know better than them. But that doesn’t mean that if you don’t have the expertise, it doesn’t mean you can’t innovate and come up with fresh and effective way to solve the problems in a very different way. So the common thread across all of them is that we came at it with a fresh perspective, with a bit of humbleness, and then we said, maybe there’s a different way of solving that problem. 

Khaled Hassounah
And you learn from your mistakes, you try and you put things out there and from them over time you gain that expertise, but also you have the chance of really creating a very meaningful innovation that hopefully can have an impact in that industry. 

Brett
Let’s switch gears. Now let’s dive a bit deeper into Ample and everything that you’re doing there. So how we like to begin this part of the interview is really focusing on the problem. So what problem does Ample solve? 

Khaled Hassounah
How do you deliver energy to electric cars in a way that’s economically viable, is scalable, and actually is convenient to the end user? 

Brett
A few months ago, or. No, this is probably like six or seven months ago now. I’ve rented a Tesla when I was on a trip, and I rented it through Turo, and it seemed like such a cool experience. I was telling my fiance, let’s get a Tesla. This is so great. And then when it came to charging, it was a complete nightmare. And I think we sat there for 30 minutes. I’m a very impatient person. I was losing my mind with the idea that I had to sit there for 30 minutes and watch it charge. And for me, that was it. No Tesla. I’m not going to pursue it until it’s faster. So is that the heart of the problem, that it just takes too long, or what like layer of the problem are you really trying to tackle? 

Khaled Hassounah
I mean, that’s one aspect of it. But I think the question we have to ask ourselves is, why did it take so long? 

Brett
Right. 

Khaled Hassounah
So very often people look at the problem and say, hey, over time, batteries are going to get faster. With charging better, the charger will become more efficient. And I think if you look at it that way, you’re looking at the Problem backwards. The fundamental reason why we can’t charge a car in five minutes is not really the battery necessarily, because that’s a problem that’s going to solve itself over time. The chemistry will get better, the engineering will get that problem solved. I think the fundamental problem is that we don’t have the infrastructure that supports that transition at the speed that we want it to happen. Step back. And you say, well, how are we, in ten years, going to move a third of human consumption of energy from one form to another? Do we have the infrastructure to be able to support that? 

Khaled Hassounah
And the answer is, we don’t. And it’s going to be a long time before we’re able to do that. So any solution has to take into account the existing infrastructure and the transition of how you get it from one place to another. And it’s not really a matter of the battery, it’s more a function of the infrastructure and the grid that we have. So, yes, at the face of it is how fast can you deliver energy into these vehicles so that your experience, it doesn’t affect your life in such a significant way that you’re going to refuse to use that product. And thats a lot of peoples experiences. 

Khaled Hassounah
But also understanding really the actual reason of why thats going to be really difficult, not in the next year or two, but in the next ten years, and trying to just immediately from today address the core challenges that make it impossible for that to happen. 

Brett
Where do you begin when it comes to trying to build a solution to solve such a massive problem like this? Like what was your first year day like or first week like as you started to really think about the solution? Where do you begin? 

Khaled Hassounah
I mean, you go back to the basics. I mean, listen, if you’re going to do what everybody else is doing and you’re just starting, you might as well go to something else because there’s a lot of people who are way more experienced than you who have done it longer and have a lot more resources. So what you don’t want to do, when you want to see if you can have a big impact on solving a fundamental problem, a very important problem is just do what everybody else is doing. Not because it’s crowded, sometimes the space is large enough that a lot of people can really succeed in it, but because if you really want to have the meaningful contribution, you have to bring something new to the table. 

Khaled Hassounah
So in this case, what you do is you step back and you say, let’s just fundamentally change the way we’re thinking about the problem and say, is there a fundamentally better way of doing it at the core of it? Right. And then once you have an idea, the first thing to validate whether that’s a worthy idea or not is to think of all the reasons why it’s not a good idea. And you just keep challenging yourself to try to make it not work. Every time you find a way in which you can make it work, you think of all the other ways in which it couldn’t and you try to find a solution for them. 

Khaled Hassounah
And you keep doing that until you actually prove to yourself that you have something meaningful that you can build kind of a business around or you don’t, then you move on to do something better with your life. And in a way, that process continues. First, yourself try to come up with good reasons why what you’re doing doesn’t make sense and try to solve these reasons that you come up with. And then after that, you go talk to other people, you go to investors, you go to experts, and you tell them what you’re working on, and you hope that they’re going to give you a really good reason why it’s not a good idea, or maybe even it’s a stupid idea. 

Khaled Hassounah
And then you keep, again, addressing those until you have developed the idea enough to the degree where that core concept that you have early on has evolved into something that really will change the world, or you find a really good reason of why it’s not a good idea. 

Brett
I watched an awesome video that you had put together on your website. Obviously, this is a podcast. Not everyone’s gonna have a chance to watch that video as they hear you speak. But can you just try to describe for us the actual product and what it is? Sure. 

Khaled Hassounah
At the core of it, our product is a battery swapping solution. So it effectively delivers energy to a vehicle, not by charging the battery inside the vehicle, but by charging it outside the vehicle, and then swapping the battery, meaning removing the battery you have in the vehicle and putting our battery inside your vehicle fully charged. And that’s how we effectively get energy into the vehicle. And the one kind of fundamental innovation at Apple, because battery swapping is something that been done, and it continues to be done in different formats, et cetera. The one fundamental innovation at ant dermics, our approach to battery swapping, very different than what other people are doing, is that we do what we call modular battery swapping. 

Khaled Hassounah
And what that means is that we don’t kind of pump your car and just take the whole battery out and put another one instead. Initially, the battery we install into your car is one that consists of multiple modules. And what our robots know how to do is to take these modules one or two or three at a time, depending on the arrangement in your car, and just put new modules into your car. Now, the reason kind of that’s fundamentally different is because it allows us to use the same modules across different cars. They just arrange in a different way to fit in the space available, depending on the size and the shape of the car. 

Khaled Hassounah
But also it allows us to significantly reduce the cost and the complexity of the robotics moving these modules, because we’re moving them as small modules, as opposed to one big battery that weighs 1000 pounds at a time. But at the core of it is like a battery swapping solution with a kind of twist, that it’s modular battery swapping solution, that we can break the battery, smaller modular pieces. 

Brett
What does the rollout look like then, in that long term vision, is there going to be a large network of stations where they can swap these out? Would they be added into existing gas stations and then swapped out there. What does that look like? Just in terms of a rollout perspective? 

Khaled Hassounah
Sure. It’s both. Right. So, one, and you’re going to see me talk more and more about why modularization is such a brilliant idea. Of course, patting ourselves in the back, but also explaining how it makes a difference, in the sense that because we’re modularizing the battery, we’re not moving as one big object. Our robotics, our whole station is a lot simpler and lighter weight. So it’s very easy for us. We don’t need to dig underground. We don’t need to. Any construction project doesn’t take. It has a very small footprint because you’re not moving massive batteries. So effectively, our station, you just drop it on the ground, connect it together. We can install a whole session in three days with no saving work whatsoever. Actually, not always. 

Khaled Hassounah
So what that means is that the speed at which we can deploy infrastructure, the optionality we have in the space in which we can put it, but also kind of the complexity and expectation of the places where we need to put it, is very minimal. We can put in a gas station, we can put in a parking lot, we can put it in a warehouse. Any place where we have three parking spots for the space and 100 kw, we can install a station. Just simplified it a lot initially. When you approach a city, you kind of start with saying, listen, if I have ten to 15 stations around the metropolitan area, I have enough geographic coverage for me to get started. But then that’s where you get started. 

Khaled Hassounah
And then based on demand and ask, cars kind of get added and you have more and more demand. Just keep adding more stations over time. But the power of it, whenever you saw the chicken egg problem, you can sell cars that are swabbed. If you don’t have station, you can install station. If you have cars, is you reduce the cost of the station. And that’s kind of the fundamental advantage that we have over existing solutions. 

Brett
And then are your actual customers then, of the battery swapping product? Are those automakers then? 

Khaled Hassounah
No. And that’s one fundamental thing that we actually don’t sell to automakers. We partner with automakers, and from the beginning, we realized that our end customer is the person or the organization that ends up owning and operating a vehicle. So those are the people we go after. So in a way, if you think about it, we are a gas station for electric cars. And what that means is when shell or BP or Exxon sell energy, they don’t sell it to the automakers. The automakers just build cars that work with that energy. And then the people who consume the energy are the actual customers, and we think about the world in exactly the same way. So at the end of the day, we partner with automaker so that they will install our technology at the factory. 

Khaled Hassounah
But then the end customer that buys these cars is the one that is our customer, who we’re trying to cater to, both in terms of reducing the cost of this energy delivery, but also making it available such that they can live their lives or operate their business without really fundamentally changing how they do either. 

Brett
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Brett
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Brett
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Khaled Hassounah
We have plenty, because if you just say battery swapping, a lot of people kind of have frequency notions of what that means. It’s kind of funny when you go into a room and you say battery swapping and you see kind of some people literally cringe. It’s kind of that typically a reaction that we get. But I think to a great degree, Brett, the reason people get that kind of reaction is because they imagine something very specific in their mind that really has almost nothing to do with approach we’re taking to it. So almost invariably, as people really understand what is it we’re doing and how we’re fundamentally changing the way battery swapping operates, we win people over, right? 

Khaled Hassounah
So the idea that our station can service almost any car, regardless of its size and shape, as opposed to saying one station car, the fact that our stations are so inexpensive, that really were even cheaper than charging on average, the fact that we don’t need the automaker to change almost anything and how they build their cars or design them or manufacture them, just all of these things kind of fundamentally change people’s perception about paddle swapping. So that’s a lot of people kind of cringe and look at us funny when we say battery swapping. But as people really spend the time and understand what we’re doing and how different the approach is, invariably we will people over just because they understand. We’re able to address almost every kind of challenge they have in their lives. 

Brett
When it comes to your marketing philosophy, how would you describe it? 

Khaled Hassounah
We don’t market. We just kind of, I mean, it’s just very simple. We just try. Listen, if you give people something that they need and it fundamentally solves a problem, you almost always don’t need to market it. Marketing is often something that you do when you have a commoditized product where almost everybody is selling and you want to tell people why what you’re having is better than the other option. So that’s usually something that, where marketing makes a lot of sense, right? You’re selling a shampoo and there is $100. People are selling shampoo. You have to explain to people why this is fundamentally different. Right. But in a space like ours, where it’s a fast growing market, there’s a lot of demand. A lot of people do want to do electricity. 

Khaled Hassounah
Just by people understanding what is it you’re working on or what is the solution and why it solves their problem. They’re going to buy. So you don’t need to do any marketing spend. You don’t need to focus on it. And we are lucky enough to be in a space that is by nature going to grow very quickly. So I personally think it’s going to be a long time before we need to do any marketing spend, really, which is our approaches have a unique enough solution that fundamentally solves the user problem and add a significant value, and then it’s going to work if it shows. 

Brett
How do you think about your market category? Is it battery swapping or what is the actual market category? Or is the market category not super relevant for you? 

Khaled Hassounah
I think it’s energy delivery for electric cars, right? When you say energy for electric cars, people often just simply think charger. I think that’s just because the market is innocent. We’re just literally scratching the surface and making EV’s available. As it grows. There’s going to be a different approaches and different options that work for different use cases and different users. But I think of our space as energy delivery in the same way that you think of gas, diesel and maybe hydrogen in the same way as energy delivery for kind of ice or similar engines. In our case, it’s energy delivery for electric cars. And we’re just one potential solution for how that problem can be solved. Trey. 

Brett
Now, we’re about two weeks into the new year, so I’m sure you’ve already finished up your annual planning. What are your top priorities for 2024 and what’s keeping you up at night as you look ahead to the next year? 

Khaled Hassounah
One of our accomplishments last year has been that were able to get some of the efforts that we’ve been working on for a while with automakers out in the public. So we made a number of significant announcements with Daimler truck, specifically on the Mitsubishi Fuso platform, and in Asia and Europe. Plus we’ve made a significant announcement with Stellantis, one of the largest automakers in the world around. Specifically, I watch Fiat, but we’re also kind of working on a number of other platforms. We have a number of other automakers. We’re actively working on integrating at the factory, preparing to make certain orders available. But last year was really around making those announcements because a lot of people challenged to us was, automakers will never do this. 

Khaled Hassounah
So it was like, nice to be able to go and announce some of these efforts and show that automakers are actually on board because we solve a fundamental problem to their customers and that they’re smart business people and that’s fundamentally what they’re looking after. What are we looking for? What we are for this coming year, our focus is going to be continuing that integration and getting cars in significant numbers on the road. So as you imagine, no automakers will want to integrate a product unless they intend to sell it. And hence their effort with us is because they want to take those cars and sell them to as many customers as they would buy them. And our challenge is going to be helping them do that. 

Khaled Hassounah
Get ready to be able to sell those vehicles, but also be prepared to start laying on the ground the infrastructure needed in order to support that demand. So in a way, just kind of getting, starting to really kind of execute on creating infrastructure, delivering energy to these customers, and learning how to be, how to create effectively operational excellence in our ability to do that in a way that allows people to drive these cars just as effectively as they drive any other car that came on today. 

Brett
As I mentioned there in the intro, you’ve raised over 290 million to date. What have you learned about fundraising throughout this journey? 

Khaled Hassounah
I’ve raised funding to a number of startups before. This is probably the most ambitious startup I’ve worked on, and maybe where we’re back, I raised the most amount of money. I would say a couple of things, is that raising $1 million or $100 million is really more or less the same process. And it’s just as hard. That’s one as thing kind of you learn over time. Some people tell you already more money is going to be easier. Some people tell you raising more money is going to be harder. And they realize it’s really exactly, almost exactly the same, just as complex or as easy to raise more money or less money. And at the end of the day, it is a matter of two things. One of them is making sure you find the right fit. 

Khaled Hassounah
This is about finding investors who understand your space enough and can really grasp and understand why what you’re doing matters, because you are expecting any investor to take a leap of faith. By nature, investing is risky. If something has already been proven, then there is no multiple. There is no reason why someone put money into it. So the assumption here is someone who will be able to build a thesis around what you’re working on and understand why, even though they’re one of the few people who see it today, what you’re doing is going to generate a lot more value that is generating today. And hence they’re going to take the risk and pull the money right now in order for them to see the multiple. And that fundamentally requires them to be able to kind of change their mind. 

Khaled Hassounah
To agree with you on why what you’re doing matters, that’s one thing. You need people who understand the space very well. But the second thing about fundraising is that it’s fundamentally a learning process. You’re fundamentally talking to a lot of people who are going to tell you the thousand reasons why they think what you’re working on makes no sense whatsoever. I mean, I think the Internet is littered with examples of the 200 people you talk to before someone invests in you. And one way to think about it is that it’s searching for a needle in a haystack. But another way to look at it is that it’s a continuous portion of learning. Everybody is giving you information. Some of it is not correct information. 

Khaled Hassounah
You need to sip through it and understand what people really maybe just don’t necessarily give you any useful information you can work with. But for every ten investors that they know, one of them is telling you something that you can learn from. And I think one thing I keep learning again and again is that you’re not just looking for the investor who’s going to tell you yes, you’re actually listening to every investor who’s telling you no. And you’re learning why are they saying no? And seeing do they have a point? And over time, what happens is that you keep changing what you’re working on, you keep changing your models, your thinking, your technology, based on what you learned throughout that process. And that’s really where a lot of the growth comes from. 

Khaled Hassounah
I mean, I think a lot of the fundamental discoveries about weakness in our business that we adjusted came from these conversations. So in a way, I think that to me, that was kind of one of things, to be honest, that I learned a little bit late in fundraising. But with the startup, just given how difficult it was just fascinating how much I learned from the nose that I got from investors throughout the courses. 

Brett
So you’re about ten years into the journey now. Do you ever find it hard to stay motivated and inspired, given that it’s already been ten years? Or do you wake up ready to go and excited every day? I am ecstatic every day. 

Khaled Hassounah
Not just excited, I’ll tell you this, which is as the company matures and evolves, the nature of the problems and the challenges you’re solving will keep evolving. So that’s one thing that keeps it exciting and to a great degree. If you find yourself three years in still solving the same problem, that means maybe the problem is either unsolvable and you should really shift and move to something else, or you’re stagnating. So in our case, I think we’re continuously solving different, more complex, or different in nature problems. So that’s one thing I think that makes it easy for you to continue to be excited, because the nature of a startup continuously shifts over time. Otherwise it stops being a startup. It becomes more of a stable businesses, just manufacturing or building or delivering a certain service. 

Khaled Hassounah
The second thing I think that makes it easy to be excited is just surround yourself with people you’re super excited to solve tough problems with and do tough things with. And I, that’s one thing I mean, my Co-Founder John and I would just never ever compromise on, which is we never want anyone into our organization or into our team that we would not be super excited about solving very hard things with. And that’s a big part of the joy, right? It’s just like you come every day and just like there are people around you who you just really enjoy being with and doing hard things with. So the combination of these two things, I think, makes it easy for you to continue being excited about what you’re working on. 

Khaled Hassounah
And the third, maybe, is just make sure you’re solving a problem you’re excited about. Regardless what it is, it doesn’t have to be solving a fundamental problem with the world. It just has to be something you personally find joy in wanting to spend your time on. And as long as that’s true also, that goes a long way. 

Brett
Final question for you. Let’s zoom out three to five years into the future. What’s the big picture vision here? 

Khaled Hassounah
So that’s a good question. I was just asked that recently, and I would say there’s two answers to that. I won’t take long, but I’ll give you kind of two answers. One answer is the obvious one, right? Which is we’re going to do a lot more of what we’re doing when I install tons of swapping stations. We’re going to integrate tons of cars. We’re going to learn how to operate a worldwide network of nopic stations that are efficient, effective, and that solves a lot of people’s challenges. So I think that’s the easy answer, right? That’s we’re going to do more of what we’re doing with more automakers and more customers. And that by itself is enough. I mean, that’s really exciting. 

Khaled Hassounah
But also one thing I personally find joy in is that what we’re building here is not just a solution, but our ability to create solutions. So I think also, just from our own history, is that I think in three years, Anfield will probably look very different than what it looks like right now. I think our technology solution will be different. The nature of how we solve it will be different. How we integrate the vehicles and maybe even how we build vehicles could be completely different. So that’s another thing also that keeps me excited is that we’re not afraid to go back and say, hey, we’ve done it works great. Can we do it better and then reinvent ourselves? We’ve shown that we can do that, and I think we’re again doing that. 

Khaled Hassounah
So there is one aspect is we’re going to do a lot of what we’re doing right now, better, bigger, wider, but also we’re hopefully going to do things that we can’t even imagine right now. And that’s another thing that also super exciting, amazing. 

Brett
You have to come back on and tell us about that another day. We are up on time, so we’re going to have to wrap here before we do. If there’s any founders that are listening in and they just want to follow along with your journey, where should they go? 

Khaled Hassounah
ample.com is a good way to learn about Ample LinkedIn, our LinkedIn kind of channel, or follow us on LinkedIn. We continuously talk about what we’re doing our announcements. What’s happening in the AmPL world? So LinkedIn is probably an excellent place to do that as well. 

Brett
Amazing. Khaled, thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun and really enjoyed it. 

Khaled Hassounah
Same here. Thanks for the opportunity. All right, keep in touch. 

Brett
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