The following interview is a conversation we had with Liam Randall, CEO and Founder of Cosmonic, on our podcast Category Visionaries. You can view the full episode here: $8.5 Million Raised to Power the Future of WebAssembly

Liam Randall
Brett, thank you so much for having us on today. We’re excited to be here. 

Brett
Yeah, no problem. So to kick things off, could we just start with a quick summary of who you are and a bit more about your background? 

Liam Randall
Yeah, sure. I mean, I would start and say I’m quite proud of being a father and a husband, and I live outside of Washington DC. I describe myself as a serial entrepreneur. It sounds pretty generic, but my parents were immigrants and I grew up hustling when I was six, seven, eight, I was working fairgrounds, selling fireworks, you name it. So I sort of came up with entrepreneurship in my blood, and as I studied computer science for undergrad, it was very natural for me to feel drawn and called startups. So I’ve worked at a whole history of them moving along and really kind of focused on at the intersection of enterprise, entrepreneurship and maybe security and networking, that kind of space. 

Brett
And I see at one point you were a VC, is that correct? 

Liam Randall
Yeah, I’ve had the good fortune to sell a couple of my startups along the way, and I’ve always just been passionate about entrepreneurship in all of its forms, and a lot of times that meant the privilege of being able to help support and invest in other people’s journeys as well, in addition to my own. So I wrote the original seed check for the OS Query team, for example, and helped convince them to leave Facebook. We had created an open source UI and were able to partner with them. I’m an investor in Horizon three AI stacklit. The theme that you continue to see is companies that believe in open source and open source core. I think there’s a big value add that I bring in building community and corporate strategy and things like that. 

Brett
Nice. We work with Fleet DM or we worked with them previously, and Zach wasserman, I think he was one of the creators of OS Query as well, right? 

Liam Randall
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Zach was one of the two folks that one of a co Founder from one of my startups, Critical Stack, that was the very first Kubernetes company in 2014. We launched about a week after Kubernetes was originally released from Microsoft so even before Brendan and the team came out to launch a core OS, and we had a great run, 5 million revenue in the first year. And when went to raise our first outside money, capital One actually moved to acquire us. And went down a crazy path and loved the journey of joining Capital One. And along the way, we had built an open source UI for Osquare. It was one of the technologies we just loved. It was called Collide at the time, I think. And so it was very natural for us to reach out to them and see if they were interested in leaving Facebook. 

Liam Randall
And we give them, Zach and Mike their first half million dollar check and then later went on to partner with a few of the other folks, matrix and some of the other later investors. 

Brett
Wow. 

Liam Randall
It was an interesting ride. And even though I was not involved in the day to day operations, it was certainly a great learning experience for me as an entrepreneur, as an investor along the way. Nice. That’s very interesting. 

Brett
Now, a couple of other questions that we like to ask, really, just to better understand what makes you tick as a Founder. First one is what CEO or Founder do you admire the most and what do you admire about them? 

Liam Randall
I think there’s all the obvious candidates. There’s the lessons you can learn from Bezos and Musk and the Google team. And I think I would really have to lean in on some of the founders that I’ve had a privilege to work with. I had a chance early in my career, almost 20 years ago now, to work with Steve Blank, who is not just an entrepreneur in his own right, but out of Berkeley. He created the Entrepreneurs Handbook and later helped to contribute to the Business Model Canvas team. If you’re familiar with some of those entrepreneurship books, what I really appreciated about the sort of meta entrepreneurship that they did it was thinking about how entrepreneurship is in itself a science and how we have so dramatically evolved our understanding of how to discover jobs to be done, how to really set up testing around iteration towards more successful business models. 

Liam Randall
So those folks that I think have made a contribution to how we build startups are the folks that I really when I look at my bookshelf, the books that are right here within my arms reach are folks that are thinking about how we do work as entrepreneurs and how we can do it better. 

Brett
And taking a step outside of business books or entrepreneur books. I stole this from someone else, but they call it a Quake book. So it’s a book that just rocks your world and changes how you view the world and think about the world. Do you have any books like that come to mind? 

Liam Randall
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I’d love to read and believe in self improvement. And, you know, lately, I think the last few years, I’ve really enjoyed a lot of the inspirational work that Ray Dalio has put out. But the books that I think had the biggest impact on my career would probably go back to Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, because it was one of the first books that really ingrained in me as an entrepreneur and as an individual, as a human, as a father, as a husband, all the different roles I play in my life. This idea that you should seek feedback and start to think about how do we reprogram the machine to look for patterns in the machine? And those journeys really led me, know, reading Man’s Search for Meaning and Viktor Frankl and really shaped me as a human being. I am acutely aware as an entrepreneur who’s had a couple great exits, that we only have a limited amount of time. 

Liam Randall
And I think what it leads to is this acceptance in risk and in this pursuit of always being a little bit uncomfortable in my life. Because when you’re uncomfortable in your life, it’s where you find growth. Now, I think there’s a dial, like a percentage that you want to aim for. My personal percentage is around 20% uncomfortable. I continue to seek out areas of growth where I’m not 100% sure how to do the problem. If you’re 100% comfortable all the time, I think that leads to atrophying of you as a human being. And there’s something about life and the startup that you’re in or what you’re passionate about in the moment as being a part of the tapestry or the quilt that you’re really painting across your life. So I continue to seek out early stage entrepreneurship, either participating in it or investing in it, playing different roles. 

Liam Randall
You noted that, for example, I’ve started to stretch muscles around being an investor and being a micro capitalist or a venture capitalist. We’ve got a fun, relentless VC where we’ve written some decent checks, I mean, a couple checks into the millions, and it’s been a great experience for me so far. 

Brett
And given your success, is it ever hard to push yourself outside of your comfort zone and make yourself be uncomfortable and feel uncomfortable? Have you found that gets harder and harder with every exit? 

Liam Randall
Oh, gosh, I think it’s really easy. I think the more you learn about different topics, you realize how little you actually know, and there’s always opportunities to do things better. I mean, just hitting a certain level of success doesn’t mean that you achieved an optimal or more or less optimal consideration. So while I am definitely a very experienced entrepreneur that’s built things from idea to exit and built revenue streams and created some very large ecosystems and communities, I always try to be very humble and recognizing that even when I’m teaching a class or I’m advising somebody, oftentimes I think that I learn as much as I teach. And the insights I gain from helping others along the way really have helped me to understand things better. So I think that it’s always this virtuous cycle of if you find the right opportunities, and that may be a good next question. 

Liam Randall
I think it sort of leads to amazing outcomes. 

Brett
And outside of your professional life, are you also making yourself uncomfortable in your personal life? Like, are you running marathons or climbing mountains or doing things? 

Liam Randall
Like constantly? Constantly. One of the big things I did two summers ago, right after I was the first person in Virginia to have COVID, my family, there were seven people that were announced in February of the COVID year, and it was five of them were my wife, myself, and our three kids. And I don’t know who the other two people were, but after that I was really concerned about what were the long term impacts. So I challenged myself to swim further than I ever could, and I swam across the Grand Traverse Bay, if anybody’s familiar. What’s up in Traverse City, Michigan? There I’ve swam through West Bay from right across the center, just me and a pair of goggles and swim trunks. No flotation, no brakes. So I constantly seek out in my personal life new challenges and new opportunities to grow and learn and to develop new skills and capabilities. 

Brett
Have you read the book The River of Doubt by chance? 

Liam Randall
I have not read the book, but I’m going to add it to my to read list right now. 

Brett
It’s so good. I just finished it, so it’s Top of Mind, and it’s about Teddy Roosevelt. And after he lost reelection, he was super depressed and super bummed, so he just wanted to give himself a hardcore physical challenge. And he goes down to Brazil and goes through this unknown river in the Amazon, and there’s a lot of people dying, and it’s a very intense physical experience. And they’re writing the book from the perspective of the journals of the people who are on the Amazon River voyage. So it’s really fascinating, and I think it aligns with what you’re talking about there of your own personal physical challenges that you’ve done. 

Liam Randall
Oh, look, I think that sounds incredibly epic, and I’ve heard of this book, but I think it’s in all the dimensions of your life. It’s not just the physical challenges where you need to find yourself a little uncomfortable. It’s about thinking through all the different skills that you have and continuing to challenge yourself to do new things. And I think if you self reflect what I found in my own life and I’ve heard other entrepreneurs and individuals talk about this, even outside of an entrepreneurship context, is that oftentimes you feel called to do things. And that sounds like a religious word, and maybe it really is, but I’ve always felt that for me, you show up your best and your purest when you’re pursuing things that you’re incredibly passionate about. So when I just mentioned a moment ago that when you’re pursuing the right things, it can lead to phenomenal growth, it’s almost trite to say that people should do what they’re passionate about, but I think we truly show up better in those cases. 

Liam Randall
And it leads to this virtuous cycle that when you show up on something that you’re passionate about, you show up completely and fully with all your faculties. You’re not just half assing a job to get it done, you’re completely invested. And that investment in the technology or in the idea leads to experience. And experience gradually starts to lead to the development of excellence in an idea. And in my business, then excellence leads to exits, which is certainly a win. But what it really means is that when you do anything, there’s going to be terrible days. I mean, even being an entrepreneur is sometimes riding the tide of the biggest peaks when things are going well to the darkest valleys, but when you’re doing things that you truly love I still skip to work every single morning. I cannot wait to get to work. I’m excited about what we’re building at Cosmonic. 

Liam Randall
I’m excited about all the things that we’re doing around WebAssembly and in our ecosystem. So it’s really amazing, even when things aren’t going well, to still maintain that enthusiasm and that passion and to maintain it for far longer than what’s normally possible. Because entrepreneurship is always a much longer journey than I think people give it credit for. 

Brett
And if you reflect on the two companies that you had a successful exit on, what were some of those dark valleys that you experienced? Are there any that come to mind that were especially painful or any near death experiences? We found that our audience loves to hear about those things because those are the things that aren’t normally talked about in a tech crunch article when you read about the big exit. 

Liam Randall
Oh, sure. I think for me personally, some of the darkest days were the side effects of entrepreneurship. I think it’s glorified being all in on an idea and being consumed by a business for a while, but it comes at a tremendous cost that is hard to describe or understand until after you’ve already paid it. For example, early on, when I was building Critical stack, I’d just come out of a really hard exit that I had with a company that still exists now, today. So it led to a lot of personal costs. You can invest yourself completely, you can do almost everything right, and you can still come up empty handed for a variety of reasons on a startup or on an idea. And it’s not just when you’re an individual. Maybe if you’re young and you’re completely independent with some big air quotes around it, you minimize the blast radius. 

Liam Randall
But if you have a family or kids, a lot of time on the road really comes at a cost of personal relationships. And I will tell you I sold my Kubernetes company. We were one of the first. We were growing really fast, and I maybe took an early layup on that one because at some point it wasn’t about the money. It was about just graduating to a higher quality of life and being able to provide more opportunity for my family. And when I took the exit with Capital One, it was a great exit. But maybe I didn’t optimize for the highest financial outcome because there was a lot more on the table that was far more important to me. Not being on the road 40 weeks a year, having time to spend with my young kids and really being present in their lives was sometimes at ODS with some of the demands that happen in some types of early stage entrepreneurship. 

Liam Randall
Sometimes you just got to grind for a long time before people recognize that what you’re doing is interesting, or before you learn how to tell the story in a way so that it appears interesting. Entrepreneurship today isn’t really even about convincing people of things. It’s about finding people that already think the way that you do and casting wide enough gnats in order to find them. 

Brett
Do you think you have a superpower? Is there a specific skill that you think you’re just really good at? 

Liam Randall
I think that there are definitely areas where I have incredible strengths. I think that I have a huge patience and consistency. I always feel like the ballast in a lot of my startups where there are people that just need to consistently grind at an idea, and I think that I show up there very well. I think that I’m very strong on the sales side and on the communication side. In a room, it’s very easy for me. I’ve got a lot of strengths in reading a room and reading all of the social, emotional and nonverbal ways that we communicate with each other. So I think I’m very good at dialing in a conversation to the right level. I’ve had a lot of success translating in that same communication vibe. I’ve had a lot of success at being able to connect with really early stage entrepreneurs and then communicate that as a business opportunity in order to close deals or to raise money. 

Liam Randall
So I think those are all real strengths that I have, and I don’t want to come off as a blowhard. I’ve got incredible weaknesses. We’re going to need a lot longer than 30 minutes. If your next question is what are your biggest weaknesses, we’ll skip that one. 

Brett
And we’ll save that for part two of the interview. 

Liam Randall
No, come on. We could totally do it. I mean, I’m not afraid. I’m terrible at so many things. I cannot navigate my way out of a paper sack relatively disorganized. But I think what’s important is, regardless of who’s listening, whether you’re an entrepreneur or not, being real with yourself around what your real strengths and weaknesses are is just super important in life. I suck at so many things, but I can minimize that by partnering with people and acquiring tools and skills in order to reduce the impact they have. I try to stay in my passion box and the things that I’d love to do all the time. And in fact, when I’m building teams or companies or managing groups, it’s never the same formula. It’s always more like a recipe. You have to understand the ingredients that you have on the table and how they complement each other when you’re building teams. 

Liam Randall
One of the management things I do for everybody in my current startup, Cosmonic, is we have a written SWOT of strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats for every individual. What do they bring that’s really unique and what do they love to do and how do we keep them in their passion boxes? I think that’s one of the key things I’ve learned about being successful as an entrepreneur is it’s oftentimes is helping other people to execute on their passions and minimize their opportunities with just code word for problems all along the way. 

Brett
This show is brought to you by Front Lines Media, a podcast production studio that helps B2B founders launch, manage, and grow their own podcast. Now, if you’re a Founder, you may be thinking, I don’t have time to host a podcast, I’ve got a company to build. Well, that’s exactly what we built our service to do. You show up and host, and we handle literally everything else. To set up a call to discuss launching your own podcast, visit frontlines.io podcast. Now, back today’s episode, and you mentioned communication skills there in your strength, so I’d love to ask about that, really, because what I’ve seen is oftentimes technical folks and technical founders aren’t the best at communicating what their product does, the value it can bring, and really telling a story around their products. So did you always have good communication skills or was that a skill that you had to really nurture and develop? 

Liam Randall
I think it was a nurture and develop. I think if I were to sort of describe some of the hard lessons that I’ve learned and maybe try to let other people learn from mistakes that I made was really starting to understand and appreciate that messages. 

Brett
Really. 

Liam Randall
Need to be tailored to a persona so that every time when you’re communicating, the very first question that you need to ask yourself is for who? Because different stakeholders have different understandings and different backgrounds and different things that you can assume. So if you want to take anybody on a journey with you or on a story, you always have to start where they are and then build a bridge to the future together. But that really starts with being empathetic and understanding the types of language that you need to use the right level of the story, the amount of time that you have to tell the story. Is this just a summary to help them move along? Or are you trying to convince somebody or compare and contrast to their day to day experiences? Those are all really important areas of communication, and it would be another whole level of expertise, and you should probably find real experts if that’s a topic that we wanted to really dive into super deep. 

Liam Randall
But I’m definitely a student of communication. 

Brett
Now, to switch gears a little bit here, I’d love to talk a bit more about the company and what you’re building today. So to start with, can you just give us the pitch? Think about this like the elevator pitch. What problem are you solving, and how. 

Liam Randall
Does the solution absolutely, you know, Cosmodic builds a platform as a service around a new standard for the web called WebAssembly. And WebAssembly is think of it as the world’s smallest virtual machine. And what it really enables us to do as developers and as companies is to build solutions and software that run in more places with less friction and have less overall maintenance overall. It sort of takes the lessons learned from the past evolutions of tech. When you think about technology as a landscape, we can almost think of it as a set of stairs where if we roll back 25 years ago, all applications would be tightly coupled with an individual computer. And we looked around continually and looked for the common complexity every five years. And we’ve sort of pioneered new abstractions. And in each one of these abstractions, we’ve had tremendous changes in the way that we build and understand the opportunities we can execute around. 

Liam Randall
If there are technical people in the audience, you may think of virtual machines in the late 90s, zen and VMware, or the rise of public cloud and after public cloud containers. And these were opportunities to look around and say, well, what’s the common complexity that everyone struggles with today? And to turn that into a platform so that we can reduce the amount of common complexity that needs to be solved on an application by application basis? WebAssembly really continues that big journey, and it’s not just another abstraction in tech. It’s actually the final abstraction in tech, because what it enables is developers to just write pure business logic that instead of including requirements at compile time when you build your apps, you can satisfy these requirements. Now at runtime. So these are already incredibly popular standards. Whether people realize it or not, you use WebAssembly in your day to day life. 

Liam Randall
Right now, Amazon Prime Video runs on 8000 unique devices. Edge companies like Cloudflare and Fastly let you write functions as a service that run across their dedicated edges. But the WebAssembly story is far bigger than that, and we see it showing up across the entire technical landscape. So Cosmotic, as a company, builds tools that help companies to adopt WebAssembly faster. And that’s what we’re really most excited about and really just tremendously appreciate the opportunity to help companies and developers get started on this journey today. 

Brett
And how do you think about the market category that you’re in then? Is it WebAssembly? Is that the market category or what is the category? 

Liam Randall
Being in a category called WebAssembly, like WebAssembly is unique today because it’s the next big thing. And today people build lists of WebAssembly companies and we are obviously on that list. But in five years every company will be a WebAssembly company. And the opportunity that we really see is to become one of the platforms that people use to build, run, deploy and scale their applications. So I think that the space is still really early. And I will tell you this as an entrepreneur, if there were a bigger opportunity that I was aware of, I would be doing that. Instead, I think that this is from a technical point of view, WebAssembly has phenomenal use cases. When we think about the enduring theme in Tech for the next ten years, which I view as bringing our compute to the data, the last ten years was really this great lifting shift into public clouds. 

Liam Randall
And obviously Microsoft Azure and AWS and GCP and Oracle and DigitalOcean have been really big winners in that trend. But the next ten years is really dominated by this theme of distributed because there’s more data than we know what to do with. So we need to position compute, to pre filter it and to action it. We need devices, all the dumb things in our lives to be a little smarter. We want those devices to have limited or deliberate autonomy. We want to enrich them with AI and ML. We want them to engage with us in real time. Streaming architectures versus batch. But what that means is that we have logic that we want to seamlessly be able to operate across a huge diversity of CPU, architectures, operating systems, all without customizing it for some bespoke platform. Amazon Prime Video doesn’t want to build a video service for Samsung Televisions and a separate video service for LG. 

Liam Randall
They want things that are portable, even if those manufacturers choose different CPUs and architectures. And that’s the real sweet spot for what we see WebAssembly offering, although it really does a lot more than that. It’s helpful for developers that are just building across a single cloud. It’s a powerful technology for sure. 

Brett
And can you give us an idea of the type of growth that you’re seeing today? 

Liam Randall
Yeah, I think the WebAssembly ecosystem as a whole is really in its Cambrian explosion days, where you see dozens of new startups executing around the space, because in each one of these epics of tech, whether it was a virtualization or public cloud or containerization, we sort of need to reinvent all the jobs to be done. When you think about monitoring, tracing, storage, distribution. So there’s sort of a blue water or greenfield time in WebAssembly where we see tons of people joining from a cosmonic perspective, we honestly don’t have time to spend with the sheer volume and number of companies that sign up for our free service@cosmonic.com. We really have cherry picked some of the most vocal and some of the loudest. The folks that are out publicly and talk about our open source, which is CNCF WASM Cloud, are people like Adobe or BMW orange business Systems of igtelco and Vodafone just started working on a project publicly around our open source and we are circling up. 

Liam Randall
We’re still a really small team. We’ve just accepted a seed with Vertex Ventures. So we really are trying to focus on optimizing our learning journey around the developers that join us today, coupled with some of these early enterprises that are increasingly going all in on WebAssembly. 

Brett
And you’ve mentioned Jobs to be done there a couple of times. Could you expand on Jobs to be Done and just talk us through the high level of what the framework is and how it works? 

Liam Randall
Yeah, sure. Jobs to Be Done is a really broad idea that’s been popularized through books like Business Model Canvas. If you’re familiar with that book, I may have mentioned it earlier, and it really encourages you to start thinking about ideas that are distinctly separate from how we solve them. Let me give you a small example. If we wanted to think about transportation, we may start to think about, I can get my kids to school via a car, I could also walk, I could rent a scooter or a bicycle, I could buy a bicycle. And each one of those solutions to my job to be done has different value propositions that are associated with it. With purchasing a bike, I might have to think about securing it on site, I might have to think about transporting it a large capital outlay to begin with, maintenance and a number of other things. 

Liam Randall
And they all have various positives and negatives when they come down to it. And really when we take the jobs to be done approach, it really encourages us to open our minds and to think larger about how some innovative ways that we may solve problems versus thinking about, hey, WebAssembly is the right answer, for example, or containers are the right answer from a technical perspective. And it focuses you to really describe the customers needs, which then I think opens you up to building more innovative solutions. 

Brett
Super interesting. Now, going back to the growth side of things, what do you think you’ve gotten right? Because as I’m sure you’ve seen, there’s just a lot of noise. From what I understand, developers are very allergic to marketing. So how are you marketing to developers, given that and what are you doing to convince them to use your tools and to switch over? 

Liam Randall
Yeah, I think some of the things that. We’ve absolutely gotten right would be around the WebAssembly ecosystem. WebAssembly is an open standard, which makes it different from some of the similar ideas that came before. In our space. There have been a lot of ideas that said, hey, what if we could build portable languages or portable solutions that let you bring new languages to the web? Which is where WebAssembly really started. And in our space, we took this idea in our open source early, and it was based on this pain that we saw in customers we supported. At the time. I had sold one of the first, if not the first kubernetes company to Capital One, and I joined an awesome company that was moving all of their applications into the cloud, supporting around 100 million customers. So big scale, big security challenges, and just an incredible team of people that I got to be a part of. 

Liam Randall
And I actually was VP of innovation there, and at one point I got promoted and I owned all open source. The OSPO was under me, and we realized that developers were really struggling to be productive. That study from Deloitte recently came out and they did an industry wide survey, and they said that developers were spending 80% of their time on operations and maintenance. And that absolutely resonated with me and my personal experience and around the organization. So it was really taking this jobs to be done approach and saying, well, what is the job that developers want? Developers want to just deliver their business logic, but the solutions that they were choosing at the time really forced them to focus on all the non functional requirements. When you want to deliver a microservice that charges you an interest rate, or that does a lookup to restaurants that are open late, you have to think about the web server and all of these supporting tools, tracing, logging, monitoring. 

Liam Randall
The bigger the company and the more highly regulated the environment, the more requirements come with those asks beyond just the business logic. So we recognize that itself as the common complexity. And while that was something were originally innovating on, just in WASM cloud the WebAssembly standards themselves, which always sort of look around the market and see what’s the best ideas from everywhere were. Working on similar ideas, they saw the same job to be done. And now that’s really evolved into something called the component model. So I think as a community, and I would say this transcends cosmonic is a part of that community, some of our developers contribute directly to the upstream tools and standards and observe on a voluntary basis on the standards bodies, et cetera. But I think those are things that we’ve really got right, and that WebAssembly resonates as a vision that all companies, banks, defense contractors, manufacturing, retailers, that everybody really resonates with, and that’s reflected in the diversity of companies and developers that are signing up to work with us today. 

Brett
And if you reflect on this journey so far, what would you say has been your greatest go to market challenge if you had to isolate and choose one? 

Liam Randall
I honestly want to pick one of the same ones. When we look back over the last few years of WebAssembly, it’s been in flight. The earliest experiments in the space really go back to 2012. On this journey that the standard has evolved through, the biggest challenge has been building a community. Because there were so many ideas that showed up on the table over the last few years, it took this last year for us to we took a very structured approach to interviewing our customers, people that weren’t our customers, as well as other community members about what they perceived their biggest challenges to be. And it came down to lack of clarity around prioritization or the standards are moving too slow. And how we solved this was we saw that as a strength and a weakness in the community. And we worked together with the community to put on a Plumber summit where we pulled many of the leaders of various WebAssembly projects together into one place. 

Liam Randall
And we honestly put some project management into place. And we forced and helped to drive decision making around. Forced is definitely the wrong word. We contributed to decision making around getting on a shared roadmap. And what that’s led to is the standards moving a lot faster. And that means that Cosmonic as a company has been able to move a lot faster as these tools and standards finish sooner. 

Brett
And final question for you here. Before we wrap, let’s zoom out into the future. So three to five years from today, can you just paint a picture of what that vision is for the company? 

Liam Randall
Yeah, absolutely. Cosmonic has partnered with companies of all stripes, flavors, and sizes in order to run their workloads on any edger cloud, including their own. And that’s largely what we’re focused on today. Today we have customers around the world that are building really amazing, innovative solutions to solve their hard problems that matter. 

Brett
Amazing. All right, Liam, we are up on time, so we’re going to have to wrap here before we do. If people want to follow along with your journey as you continue to build and execute, where should they go? 

Liam Randall
Absolutely. Well, I think the easy place to get started is to join us@cosmonic.com. We try to keep an up to date blog of all things WebAssembly. Personally, I’m on Twitter at Hectorman, and usually on the various other services that are out there. I know Twitter is in a bit of flux lately, and you can usually find us at all of the WebAssembly conferences that are around. I happen to have the privilege of serving as a program chair again for CNCF WebAssembly Day. So if you’re at KubeCon or any of the related events, I’m always there with a big smile on my face and usually volunteering to help out. Amazing. 

Brett
I love it. Liam, this has been so much fun. I’ve really learned a lot from you, and I know our audience is going to love this episode. So thank you so much for taking the time. 

Liam Randall
I really appreciate it. Brett, I learned a lot from you, and I’m really looking forward to picking up a river of doubt and I really enjoyed the conversation. This was a lot of fun. Thank you so much. 

Brett
Yeah, thank you. Let’s keep in touch. This episode of Category Visionaries is brought to you by Front Lines Media, silicon Valley’s leading podcast production studio. If you’re a B2B Founder looking for help launching and growing your own podcast, visit frontlines.io podcast. And for the latest episode, search for Category Visionaries on your podcast platform of choice. Thanks for listening, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.