The following interview is a conversation we had with Antoine Welter, CEO & Co-Founder of Circu Li-ion, on our podcast Category Visionaries. You can view the full episode here: $8.5 Million Raised to Build the Future of Battery Upcycling
Brett
Hey, founders, thanks for listening to another episode of Category Visionaries. Today we’re speaking with Antoine Welter, CEO and co-founder of Circu Li-ion, a battery upcycling company that’s raised 8.5$ million in funding. Antoine, thanks for chatting with me today.
Antoine Welter
Pleasure to be here, Bret.
Brett
Super excited for our conversation. I’d love to begin with learning a little bit more about your background.
Antoine Welter
So I’m a Luxembourg born individual. I partially grew up in the US, so I learned a lot from you guys between the age of five and eleven, then went back to Luxembourg, grew up there, started working quite early next to my high school. So I think that’s also helped me a lot in my entrepreneurial journey. Hands on. So I cleaned the warehouse and then sold the material out of the warehouse. So very solid education, I’d call it next to high school. Then studied in Barcelona, Munich, in Shanghai, and then worked in consulting for a few years. And then through the drive, to be honest, mainly by my mother, of doing something good, looked for a big problem we could solve. And that’s how I got together with my co-founder, doctor Xavier Cohen, and we founded Circu Li-ion.
Brett
So let’s talk about your mindset when you’re working at a center, working in consulting, did you have this idea that someday you would go and start a company, or did it really require that push from your mom to be like, get out there, go build something that makes.
Antoine Welter
I think that, I mean, when I mentioned my mom was more wild growing up, teaching me anti consumption and take care of nature and all those things. So I think it only when I was 16 and didn’t get a new pair of Nikes, I always thought that was super annoying. But later on, getting a little bit older, I realized how smart that actually was. So I think I never went into consulting to stay there. And I got feedback from my first manager director saying, antoine, you’ll be extremely mediocre at the low levels, but I’m sure you can be a great md. And then I calculate and say, okay, well, I’ll need another eight or ten years to get there. So fuck this. I need to do something different. And that’s how those two things came together. Yeah.
Antoine Welter
So my sales background out of high school and then combined with mission driven, plus knowing that if I really want to change a problem, I can’t do it in a corporate setup, right. I need to go out and try to risk it to win the biscuit.
Brett
And were there any founders that were really inspiring you then? Kind of you planting that seed in your head of, hey, I could do that too, or, hey, I could launch a company as well. Were there any founders that you were maybe just studying or just you checking them out in the year and following along?
Antoine Welter
I couldn’t point to one where I’d say, wow, I kind of followed that. But I think there’s a lot of inspirational people out there and I like to read their ideas, but I always pick a few things, what I really like of them and whatnot. So, I mean, the classics are, I don’t know, musks and Bezos and co. And a lot of the things that they say I don’t agree with, but some of them I do pick and I think maybe more. Howard marks one of my favorite books, the most important thing, and he doesn’t describe anything really complicated, but very simple principles. So, for example, one classical was like, theres no bad share. Theres only a bad price to the share. And a lot of these things in the open journey, I think, are a lot more easier and more down to earth.
Antoine Welter
And people might glorify them as, wow, its an extremely complicated strategy or whatever, but it comes down to using common sense to solve a lot of different problems in a day.
Brett
Thats a perfect segue to talk about the problems that you’re solving. So lets switch gears and lets dive a bit deeper into the company. How we like to begin. This portion of the interview is really focused on articulating and defining the problem that you’re solving. So what problem do you solve?
Antoine Welter
We solve the problem of in the battery space. Batteries ending up in a end of life recycling a lot earlier than they should be, and the shit in, shit out problem in the battery space, everything is shredded today in a battery instead of taking apart those components and cleanly recycling different material streams. So the best example you could take is your home waste, right. You have paper, aluminum, plastics, whatever, in it as a bunch, it’s worth nothing. But if you would separate, all of them would actually be resources that you could reuse.
Brett
Again, what types of batteries are we talking here? Is it like phone batteries? Is it remote batteries? Is it car batteries?
Antoine Welter
We started off with micro mobility batteries. So e bikes and scooters, emo pad. Then we added power tools on demand from customers. Then we added electric car batteries, then we added drone batteries, energy storage batteries. So the key for us is because we’re a software hardware combo solution for us to build up our battery library. So how do we make our robots smart enough to open a high variability of batteries?
Brett
That must have been a smart market. Then early on, whenever I walk around and you see these dead scooters just scattered everywhere you go, did you initially have the idea to focus on that market or did you go into market and then find that was an opportunity that you could serve?
Antoine Welter
We focused on that market in beginning simply. Also there very easy principles that we found out that these batteries basically die twelve to 18 months after they entered the market. And if you look at a car battery, it takes a lot longer between let’s say five and eight years in an optimal case until they come out of the market. So it was actually just by looking and understanding the market that we decided to go for microbiology first.
Brett
And then who are your customers? It’s not the actual end consumer. This is the B2B play.
Antoine Welter
Yes, great. We don’t interact at all with the B2C customer. But what we do is we work with big recyclers, big oems of different battery types, and work directly with them together. Because obviously you need big volumes to make automation worth it.
Brett
Let’s imagine that I’m an oem. What’s the pitch?
Antoine Welter
The initial pitch, especially in economic or tough times, is we’re the cheaper solution for you to get rid of your battery economically and ecologically viable.
Brett
Whats the cost savings if they use you versus if they do nothing? Is this strictly a money saving or a money generating conversation? Or is it more about just making the planet better or is it both?
Antoine Welter
Its both. But I also think I traveled the US for three weeks visiting customers and investors in December, learned that in uS, if you start a story with sustainability, no one cares, but you always need to start with money first. A little bit different in Europe, but I think at the end of the day, as I mentioned, especially in economic more difficult times, you always have to have an economical value proposition. And on top we also have the ecological added benefit.
Brett
That sounds like the american way. We got to start talking about the money first. What kind of savings or revenue generating are they typically seeing? Is there like percentage that they see like an uptick, anything like that? Or does it really depend on the scale they’re operating at?
Antoine Welter
Obviously, the bigger the operations, the better automation kicks in terms of unit economics. But I think generally you can say anywhere above 40% less cost by using our service.
Brett
And then how does it work? Do they have to get the batteries to you? And then you have a big factory that’s doing the processing, or what does that look like?
Antoine Welter
Yeah. So today we have our R and D headquarter in Luxembourg, where we’re now also adding a plant to that. But we already have an operational plant running in Germany. So classically today, they bring us the batteries. And what we’re working on right now is, I like to call it the McDonald’s of upcycling. Why? Because we also, we set up the process, we provide the technology and the menu card, but then we roll out with recyclers and oems that they can implement our solution on their sites.
Brett
Let’s imagine over the next five years that you just dominate Europe. How many plants would you need?
Antoine Welter
If that’s the case, a little bit over 160.
Brett
Wow, that’s a lot of plants.
Antoine Welter
But they’re small, right? They’re 30 m². So what we do is we implement ourselves in existing infrastructure. Why do we do this? Because the whole regulatory framework is quite tricky. So by using existing infrastructure, we can scale a lot quicker.
Brett
What do you mean, existing infrastructures? Is this going into existing plants?
Antoine Welter
Yeah, for example, battery producers, or where batteries are built into cars, or where recycling facilities. Right. We use part of their base to implement our machine. And why do these companies do that? Because we have a very significant impact on their net contribution margin.
Brett
So the pitch is we’ll make you more money, and at the same time, you can also save the planet. It sounds like a no brainer. What’s preventing you from having ten x or 100 x more customers? Is it really just building out that infrastructure in those plants that can service them?
Antoine Welter
I think, on the one hand, obviously, it’s rolled out. Ideas of easy execution is hard, as my co-founder always says. But I think, on the other hand, it’s also about not rolling out too quickly. I mean, the key of what we solve is really being able to treat a high variability of batteries. Right. If you only want to dismantle two, three types of batteries, you can scale a lot quicker. But we want to have this flexibility of going from microbial power tools, EV’s, energy storage batteries, and so on. So we really need to make sure that our robots are very smart to be able to tackle these problems and don’t stop every two, 3 hours. And I think that for that you need a lot of great talent and just scaling up.
Antoine Welter
You also need a little bit of time to find that right talent. So I think those are the two components.
Brett
What have you done to build trust and credibility with customers? Yeah, this isn’t some e commerce widget or cybersecurity SaaS software that they just plug in. This is heavy equipment. This is serious stuff. This is physical in real world. How do you get people to give you a chance and to give you a shot?
Antoine Welter
Yeah, so we always call it. We’re not a paper startup, so that’s why we built our own facility in Germany. Right. So customers come, they see their own classically, they do a bigger pilot project with us before they visit us, so that they can really see their own batteries being processed. So I think the look, smell, and feel that changes the topic. From a classical SaaS business.
Brett
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Brett
One of the things that I see a lot in the US, I’m sure this happens in Europe, is that being a tech founder is glamorized. And if you’re not a tech founder looking in, it just looks so cool. You get all the glory, all the good stuff. But from my conversations and just from personal experience, I know the reality is a lot different. There’s a lot of lows, there’s a lot of very difficult points to navigate. So for you, what would you say has been the lowest low and what you do to navigate through that low and get back to a place that you were feeling a bit better?
Antoine Welter
Yeah, I think that’s one point that people might. Or in the startup ecosystem, one talks about too little. Right. So I think you’re a great entrepreneur if you can navigate the real low, because everyone can navigate a few very big highs and maybe say two that we had, and we had one that we had a very obvious business case for a very large OEM. And despite that, there was internal political resistance to our project, and we put a lot of effort into that. But a year and a half ago, we lost that deal. We got it back now finally in the last year, but that was pretty low because it was tough. We knew were better, we knew we had a right solution, but we still didn’t win. And I think, secondly, the battery space is a very regulated space.
Antoine Welter
So we worked over a year to get our regulation permits in Germany, and there were a few lows in that process because it cost a lot of money, a lot of paperwork we had to do. But in the end, as a team, we pulled through and that was. But it was tough. And as I mentioned, I think if you handle lows, I think a classical one that you have is seeing great talent, you would love to hire, and then they, for whatever reason, decide to not join. That’s also something I personally and makes me sad because on the flip side, I really enjoy working with great people.
Brett
You ever have days where you think.
Antoine Welter
Shit, I should have just done a.
Brett
Paper startup, to be honest.
Antoine Welter
No, because I really love production. I really love that we really produce something I can touch and see. So that one, no.
Brett
How’d you narrow it down to this idea of battery upcycling? So it sounds like you just really started off with kind of a blank slate. You wanted to start a business that did good for the world and made the planet a better place. Why did you end up deciding battery upcycling? I’m sure that there were a long list of options that you could have pursued. Why this one? What was it about this problem that really attracted you to it?
Antoine Welter
Firstly, I got from an automotive OEM, an executive there, he was like, hey, you guys should be looking into this. So I was just using my network to find a big enough problem to work on. I talked to a lot of customers and realized that these used batteries were a real problem. Like the best evidence is how does the money flow work? And today people pay to get rid of a battery. So there was clear that there is a real problem. And then I think on the other, on the more technical side, shall I, my co-founder, read over 100 academic papers stating that there was something real to be solved. So we mix the business input with real academia, and this is kind of what we focus on.
Antoine Welter
Also, out of Europe, we spend billions and billions on R and D, but we’re really shit at bringing those ideas to market. I think what you in the US, you’re a lot better at. And that’s what we wanted to combine. We found a problem that really is worth solving.
Brett
When we look at your approach to marketing, how would you summarize your marketing philosophy?
Antoine Welter
We do little, but we’re truthful in what we do, right? So we kind of, when we do something, we want to make aware of real problems and we want to be honest in our communication of how we identify these problems and how we aim or have solved them. But I think as that b, two b company and one of our main aspect of marketing is really attracting great talent, where you want to have core messages that are truthful and that reflect your company culture, in your marketing and the face you show as the company.
Brett
Robert, how do you attract talent? What are you saying in your messaging and in your marketing communication? And just in general, to get talent kind of similar to customers? How do you get customers to give you a shot? How do you get top talent to say, okay, I’m going to go spend the next three or four or five years of my career working at this start up with a very ambitious idea.
Antoine Welter
I think on the technical side, it’s having co-founder like Xavier, who really has the deep academic expertise and can convince everyone that he understands and can kind of talk eye to eye with them. I think that’s very important on the tech side. People, not only on the tech side, but especially on the tech side, like to follow great people there. So I think that’s one of our key retracting talent is Talia. Definitely on that side. I think on the business side, it’s a little bit of making this motivation that people now have to really change something in the world, making it a reality. But I think if they go to big corporates, they probably know a lot of it is greenwashing or just park. And here they can really see it and we can quantify it. I think that’s also super important.
Antoine Welter
And in general, I think in the communication, we communicate our company values very clearly and bluntly in the interview process, and we qualify people according to how we think they would fit with these. So I think that’s a key point of being able, because great talent is, we like to think it’s mostly about great attitude, right? You can have super smart people, but if they’re not willing to collaborate, not willing to share hard moments together, then the best talent won’t help you, but the best attitude will. And that kind of these combinations is what has helped us gather a great team together. And one beautiful point I heard last time from Internet, converting into a full time employee was the reason why he wanted to stay, was that he felt I love working with great people, and that was one of the highs.
Antoine Welter
A lot of people might think funding rounds or whatever, customers are highs, but having that kind of feedback from a team member, I thought that was, for me, definitely a very big high.
Brett
Can you tell us about the most important decision that you’ve made today? And that’s probably hard to think off the top of your head, so feel free to change that question around if you’d like. But what we’re really looking for, and what I’ve learned from my conversations, is that a lot of companies can really trace their success back to a few key decisions that really change the trajectory of the company. Do any decisions like that come to mind for you?
Antoine Welter
I think the best especially took was, and then when I say we is Sally and me getting together as very complementary co-founders. So we understand deeply everything on the tech side, eye on the business side, and by having this and respecting opinions and challenging if people respectfully challenging. So I think that was one big key decision. I think we’ve also been pretty good at letting people go that didn’t fit our culture and taking our decisions there, right, where the easy way might be to just let people continue on and or hand out or whatever. And were always very direct and took that burden maybe on our even a little bit more, but making sure that were truthful to what we really want to accomplish.
Antoine Welter
And then I think in terms of science, the example I’ve mentioned was I still remember how happy were when we turned around the ultra low a few years ago into a high now.
Brett
Right?
Antoine Welter
So probably that conversion of still winning over a tough client are also key turning points.
Brett
What’s the competitive landscape look like? Are you competing against other companies that are doing something similar with battery upcycling? Or is your true competitor really just the status quo and batteries not being upcycled at all?
Antoine Welter
I think there are one, two companies that are doing something similar. Sorry, a little bit after us, but I think mostly we’re really creating a new category, right? And the classical thing that comes up with a new category is that you really need to be substantially better to change the pattern of how people work. So I think that our biggest competitor today is the status quo. Just throwing a battery to shredder and bring away the organics and not being able to really reuse and economically recycle clean value streams.
Brett
What is the category that you’re creating, and how do you define that category?
Antoine Welter
I think I would describe the category as making sure all components are separated into reusable and recyclable parts before they end up in a suboptimal recycling process. Today, if you shred a battery, you contaminate all of the materials inside the chemicals that are in the battery. So it’s very hard to recycle any of the components. So I’d say this is a new category. It’s a good question how you would call it. Maybe you can call it like making urban mining a reality. So all of the products that we have around us being able to really reuse them. Maybe if you want to call it.
Brett
A category, as I mentioned there in the intro, you’ve raised 8.5 million to date. What have you learned about fundraising throughout this journey and throughout this process?
Antoine Welter
I think what we learn most across the whole fundraising journey is that something like deep tech that we do. If you really have to explain to investors what you do, it will not end up in a successful discussion because you constantly have to educate. And its a lot about how the first poll goes and how they follow up. If you realize in the second call, hey, they actually look into the market because battery upcycling is not like, I don’t know, account software, where it’s quite obvious, right. You really have to feel that they kind of looked into it. Those are the discussions that then end up being by far the best, and also those that end up investing and also just continue to help you.
Brett
Across the whole path based on everything that you’ve learned so far. What would you say would be the number one piece of go to market advice that you’d give to a founder who’s just beginning to build?
Antoine Welter
Be honest to yourself of what you’re seeing and what you’re hearing. Don’t try to sugarcoat if a customer says, I don’t pay for that or I don’t pay for this. So take it, don’t try and. But maybe he will pay, but take it very honestly. And there’s a great book that Xavier actually forced me to read, the mom test, where just go look for a no in each meeting. Get at least one no. And I think that very true in Gotemark. Don’t focus on the yeses that you get. Focus on the nos and make sure you can fix those.
Brett
I love the mom test book. I wish every book was written in that style and that length. It’s such an easy read and you walk away. Know everything that you need to know. And every founder I know, they say that’s changed how they think about this, but it’s such a simple book. It doesn’t have to be this, like, university textbook. It can be simple and just straight to the point. I wish more books were that way.
Antoine Welter
Yeah, I agree.
Brett
Now, we’re depressingly, what, five weeks into 2024? So I’m sure your 2024 planning is long done. Now, what are the top priorities for 24 and what’s keeping you up at night, apart from the three week old baby?
Antoine Welter
Well, yeah, that boy is definitely keeping up. But next to that, I think rolling out. So we’re constantly adding capacity to our current operations and on the other hand, also roll out rolling out with customers, because it’s not just about convincing the people who pay for the project, but it’s also, in our case, convincing the operators that they use the machinery. And we’ve seen that and the customers developing most successfully. It’s not because the CEO or the strategy or head of operations love what we do. It’s because the people on the field love what we do, where we help them have a better workflow. And I think how do we get that into scale is definitely what keeps me up at night next to how do we find and retain the best talent we can get?
Brett
Final question for you. Let’s zoom out three to five years into the future. What’s the big picture vision that you’re building here?
Antoine Welter
That Circu Li-ion has enabled urban mining by being able to dismantle all sorts of different batteries, but also maybe adding other products that are worth dismantling to our portfolio. And we’ve looked at one or two there. So really making urban mining and the Circu Li-ion economy not only a green bubble reality, but a mass in the mass, a reality, amazing.
Brett
Love the vision. Love this idea of urban mining. Ill be following as you execute on this vision. Now, before we wrap up here, if there’s any founders that are listening in, they feel inspired and they just want to keep up with this journey. Where should they go?
Antoine Welter
On LinkedIn, you can find me Antoine Welter. Feel free to reach out. Everyone always makes fun out in the team how good I take care of my LinkedIn account, but I think it’s a great way to. I reached out to a ton of people who didn’t answer to me. So today, if someone can be of help, I think that’s very important. And then also our company account on LinkedIn and our Circu Li-ion, and they’ll find us and we share ideas and always interested in all kinds of talent reaching out. If there’s nothing, no role, feel free to reach out to anyone in the team. And we’re happy to have a conversation.
Brett
Amazing. Thanks so much for taking time. It’s been a lot of fun.
Antoine Welter
Thank you very much for the invite.
Brett
No problem. Keep in touch.
Brett
This episode of Category Visionaries is brought to you by Front Lines Media, Silicon Valley’s leading podcast production studio. If you’re a B2B founder looking for help launching and growing your own podcast, visit frontlines.io podcast. And for the latest episode, search for Category Visionaries on your podcast platform of choice. Thanks for listening, and we’ll catch you.
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