The following interview is a conversation we had with Michael Guirguis, Founder & CEO at SESO , on our podcast Category Visionaries. You can view the full episode here: $30 Million Raised to Power the Agriculture Workforce of the Future.

 

Michael Guirguis
Thank you for having me, Brett. Excited to be here with you. 

 
Brett
Not a problem. Super excited to chat. So, to kick things off, can we just start with a quick summary of who you are and maybe a bit more about your background? 

Michael Guirguis
Yeah, of course. My name is Michael Guirguis. I’m the co-founder and CEO of SESO. We are an end to end kind of workforce management platform for agriculture. I don’t have an agriculture background. I have a bit more of a labor background. So I studied labor economics in college, wrote my thesis on labor policy, and I graduated at the heart of the last recession. And everyone was kind of interested in the economics major in job creation and the unemployment rate. And I interned at the White House right after college in the National Economic Council, working on job creation initiatives. And then I worked at McKinsey doing a lot of public sector work and again focusing on vocational training and job creation.

Michael Guirguis
And then I got convinced by my cousin to quit that job and join his startup, which was a labor marketplace for on demand education. And we connected students and tutors over a mobile app. And in the first year, we had a million students on our platform, and we had thousands of teachers and tutors get jobs with us. And I realized that if you really want to do job creation at scale, it’s much more interesting to do that in the private sector, leveraging technology than trying to climb the government ladder. So after doing that for a few years, I started SESO and haven’t really looked back since. 

 
Brett
So take me back to when you were like ten years old. Were you just dreaming about labor or where did that passion come from for labor?

Michael Guirguis
No, I mean, when I was younger, I think, like many kids, I just wanted to do something that helped people, made a difference in the world. So I didn’t know what that thought. Oh, it’s you know, being the secretary general of the UN or something like that. Then eventually I learned what an economist was, and I thought that was really interesting, or like being somebody who makes policies that help people, but it wasn’t as specific as labor until, I would say, college.

Brett
What was it like working in the White House? What was, like, the most surprising thing that you learned or surprising thing that you saw while you were working there?

Michael Guirguis
Well, what’s super interesting is that it’s a really small team. So the entire National Economic Council, which makes all of the policies that get rolled out, is about 30 something people. And as an intern, once you proved yourself, you had a ton of responsibility. And so I was writing briefs that ultimately would go up to the director of the National Economic Council and sometimes to the president about the state of the housing crisis or the state of some of the employment policies that were being initiated. And that was just really cool that you could be an unpaid intern and you could actually be having an impact.

Brett
Yeah, that’s super cool. A couple of questions we like to ask, and the goal here is really just to better understand what makes you tick. First one, what founder do you admire the most and what do you admire about them?

Michael Guirguis
I’m a really big fan of Ryan Peterson from Flexport because he was really embedded in a problem, and he decided to kind of take this really unique route of building in an industry where it’s been around forever, shipping and logistics, and there have been so many smart people, there’s been so much money poured into this industry, and no one’s ever really innovated with a software enabled platform the way Flexport did to that industry. And I thought that was just know. Everyone that talks about Ryan as an operator says amazing things. He’s invested in our company, and so I don’t know him personally too well, but I’ve just always been impressed with taking on an extremely large and challenging industry and just totally crushing it. And then Xien from rig up.

Michael Guirguis
Now, workrise is another one where Xian was working in oil and gas and saw this problem as somebody kind of like, from the investor standpoint and decided to quit his job and work full time on addressing that problem and making it easier for contractors to get jobs in upstream oil and gas and to get insurance and kind of to simplify and streamline that process, both for the employers and the workforce. So those are two founders that I’m big fan of. 

 
Brett
We have another podcast called Unicorn Builders that interviews founders who build billion dollar companies. And we actually interviewed his co founder of Workrise, Michael Whitty and did a deep dive on what they were building there. It’s a fascinating company. And he spoke very highly of him. When I asked Mike the question, he said it was his co founder that you just mentioned. There was the founder that he admires the most. 

 
Michael Guirguis
Oh, awesome.

Brett
Yes. Now let’s talk about books now, how we like to frame this. And this comes from Ryan Holiday. He calls them Quickbooks. So a quickbook is a book that rocks it to your core, really influences how you think about the world, how you approach life. Do any books like that come to mind? 

 
Michael Guirguis
Yeah, I mean, I’ll preface know this is a controversial one in a sense, but I learned a lot from it. Genghis Khan and the making of the modern world. So this is a pretty long book that talks about the history and kind of story of Genghis Khan. And he’s one of these characters in history that has been painted very differently in eastern versus western society. But the legacy this guy has is wild. And he basically started this empire that united the modern world. Know, Mongolia, all the way to the UK. And he’s considered to be in a lot of western society. Like, he was demonized for a long time because he was the one who kind of conquered Europe. But a lot of the best things that we have in our world came from mongol society. And so there’s just a big misperception.

Michael Guirguis
But what’s most interesting about this is Genghis Khan didn’t want to be a conqueror. He wasn’t a ruler or king. He kind of had his small little fiefdum and then was really offended by a trader who killed his men when they were trying to make a trade. And he had kind of a way of life or rule of how he lived his life and of their society that he felt was betrayed. And so he basically declared war on the world. But in that process, he united the world, and he united and created all these modern trading routes. And a lot of. He probably sped up innovation in a ton of ways that people don’t give him credit for without knowing his whole story.

Brett
You said it’s a long book. How long are we talking? I have some guests. Come on. They tell me a book, I get excited and I look, and it’s like 1200 pages. What are we looking at here?

Michael Guirguis
No, it’s probably in that range, too. I got to look it up. I read it a few years ago. It’s not more than 1200 pages.

Brett
Okay, well, if I spend 20 hours reading this and it’s no good, I’m going to come back and read. Let’s switch gears now, and let’s dive into the company. How we like to start this is. Let’s focus on the problem. So what problem do you solve? 

 
Michael Guirguis
So, the biggest problem in agriculture is access to labor. And what we solve is streamlining the process of hiring and managing a labor force. 

 
Brett
Take us back to the founding of the company. What was it about this problem? How’d you uncover this problem? And what made you say, yep, I’m going to build a company around this? 

Michael Guirguis
So I’ve always been interested in labor and job creation, and I didn’t know a ton about farming, but my cousin Marcia is a farmer in the Central Valley in California, and she needed help figuring out if she could buy the property next door and the farm next door was available for purchase. And I was kept looking at her financials, and it was pretty clear that she didn’t have enough labor. And labor was this constant pain point, and the price of labor and everything that she was doing was constrained by, do you have enough workers to pick the crop and harvest the crop if they were to expand? And so I kind of became really interested and obsessed with, like, well, how do you address this huge labor shortage and this problem in Ag? 

 
Michael Guirguis
And first, before I did what we started doing today, we looked at robotics and automation and strawberry picking, robotics and things like that. And I would run this idea by farmers, and they kept saying, nobody needs another stupid robot. There’s a ton of these guys out there. They’re way ahead of you. And it’s not making a dent anytime soon, which was surprising. Most venture capitalists think that vertical farming and automation are just going to replace humans in ag in the near future. And that’s far from the truth, or at least anytime soon. And they know, solve the labor problem. That’s what farmers need. And then I was having Thanksgiving dinner with Marsha, my cousin, and her husband, who’s from Oaxaca, from southern Mexico. He said, in Mexico, there’s a visa we treat like gold, but nobody knows how to get it.

Michael Guirguis
And I started looking into it, and I learned that there’s this big visa group called h two a, which is one of the only visas in the US that’s uncapped. And it’s grown 300% in the last few years. It’s continuing to grow tremendously, and there’s a ton of complexity around that problem. It’s hard for farms to understand how to bring in workers on that visa, how to follow the different regulations required to manage that workforce. And the more you dig into and talk to farmers, you realize that whole back office is broken. So you’ve got payroll software that doesn’t talk to accounting software, that doesn’t talk to your timekeeping software. You’ve got processes that should definitely be done digitally, still being done manually. 

 
Michael Guirguis
And while there’s a ton of innovation in Agtech in terms of, like, drones and sensors in the field, and all this investment in trying to increase yields on the production side of agriculture, you see very little investment in the labor side. And the biggest pain point is labor, and the biggest spend is labor. And the more I kind of saw these things and then started talking to farms and shadowing farmers, the more I realized this was the most interesting you can do in terms of supporting the ag industry is addressing the labor shortage, and the visa was the way to break in. 

 
Brett
Can you paint a picture for us of what the agriculture landscape looked like? Is it looks like today? Is it like a bunch of distributed independent farmers? Or is it all owned by Blackrock or some other PE firm that owns everything? 

 
Michael Guirguis
So there’s still close to 2 million farms in America, but you are seeing a ton of consolidation. So mom and pop farmers are struggling more, and you’re seeing blackrock and hedge funds and PE firms buying up more land. Generally, those guys that Bill Gates is the biggest landowner right now in the world, or, sorry, in the country. And so people think, oh, so it’s now being run by these big corporate organizations. But there’s a difference between who owns the land and who actually harvests the crop and grows on the land. And so you still have even some of the biggest farms in America, like Taylor Farms and Tanamura and Antel Lippman family farms. These are all still run by the, you know, farming is know very much family businesses. But sometimes the landowners are much bigger entities. 

 
Brett
What’s it like selling to them? Do they tend to be open know technology platforms like yours, or is that a hard sale to make? 

Michael Guirguis
It was hard initially because you’re selling the little bit of software you’d built, and then you’re selling the vision. And so that’s, I think, across any industry, that’s hard. But as we’ve actually been able to spend time with farmers and know real tools that solve problems for them, it’s become a lot easier. One of the things that a farmer said to me that’s always stood out to me was, he know, a lot of people from Silicon Valley, they come here and they try to tell me how to farm, and I know how to farm. You don’t know how to farm. But you came here and told me about a program that I’m trying to use that I don’t really understand. And I appreciate that. Right. So we don’t go there and, you know, we’re going to do this and that for you. 

Michael Guirguis
And we’ve got all these data analytics on your farm and we’re smarter than you to an extent. We’re staying in our lane and we’re really just maniacally focused on everything related to labor. So the regulations like what’s happening in DC, that’s going to affect labor policy. What are the different workflows related to an I nine or onboarding a worker or payroll compliance. So things really in the weeds that your back office is running and we’re tracking every detail of that for you. And so when they see that, hey, we don’t just have software, we really understand this better than anyone they’ve ever spoken to. And we’re going to help them maintain compliance. We’re going to help them do things the right way, do things legally and sustainably, but also have an roi long term. We have to earn the trust. 

 
Michael Guirguis
You don’t just say we have cool software. It’s really like we are industry experts on something that is really important to your operation and you’re not an industry. 

 
Brett
Expert on did you have product market fit right away or what was that journey like to finding product market fit? 

 
Michael Guirguis
I think it’s too simple of answer to say yes. But one thing I’ll say that we’re very proud of is actually met with an engineer. I was thinking of making a co founder early on, and he’s at OpenAI now. And I ran into him at a dinner four years later and he’s like, what are you working on? And I told him, and he know, that’s word for word what I remember you pitching me four years ago. So in a sense, the problem we’re trying to address, the labor shortage and streamlining kind of this visa program and building software around it has been the same. The solution space has changed a bit. So initially I thought, okay, well, this is clearly a marketplace and matching supply and demand is our value add. 

 
Michael Guirguis
And the more time we’ve spent building products and serving customers, the more we realize they need vertical software across the entire back office, more so than they need a marketplace solution. So there’s been kind of changes, but I think we made those changes very early on, or I shouldn’t even say changes. We focused in on the product to address the core pain points early on and haven’t had to do any major pivots. I think there are elements of what we thought was going to be the big value out of that product that was not as powerful as something else we hadn’t thought about. But the core product itself and the core market has remained the same, I would say. 

 
Brett
How has the problem evolved since 2019? Is this problem getting any better, or is it just as bad as it was when you started? 

 
Michael Guirguis
I would say it has not gotten significantly better. At a macro level, I think the customers that work with us are having a better experience, have a lot more data transparency, like they have an ROI. But generally, at a macro level, there’s a massive labor shortage that continues to exist. There’s been nothing close to immigration reform to address it. So basically, we have two to 3 million ag workers in the US. There’s a demand for at least another half a million. And every year, more and more of these ag workers leave the industry, whether it’s because they’re retiring or they go into another industry that is less physically taxing. And so this visa program, which is uncapped, has grown from, must have been 250,000 when we started to. Now it’s 380,000 workers. We think it’ll hit a million in the next few years. 

 
Michael Guirguis
So the visa program is kind of the solution that exists, and we’re just trying to make it easier and more compliant for both farms to navigate it, but also a better experience for workers entering this visa program. But the core macro problem still remains. 

Brett
Because immigration is such a hot topic in politics that everyone likes to fight about and debate about. Do you ever get pulled into those types of conversations? 

 
Michael Guirguis
Yeah, I’ve spent a decent amount of time talking to folks in DC, whether that’s senators or congressmen and women or regulatory consultants, and also working with nonprofits that are in the ag space. And I’m not super optimistic about a short term solution, and so I try to spend less of my energy pushing for that. There are great organizations out there that support the ag industry and support the workforce and are fighting for changes, but we’re not a lobbyist, and that’s not our goal. So I try to stay in tune of what’s going on, but don’t take a stance on that too hard. 

 
Brett
Does anyone oppose h two a? Is there anyone trying to get that eliminated? 

 
Michael Guirguis
No one’s trying to get it eliminated. I mean, the reality is when the pandemic started, the president banned every single visa group from entering the US until he figured out what’s going on with the coronavirus. Within 24 hours, he unbanned h two a because that’s how important and essential it is to our economy. I mean, if you don’t have this workforce here, then you’re not going to have lettuce at Costco or Walmart. So I think there’s pretty broad understanding and recognition that we need this labor force. You see that from both Democrats and Republicans. The program hasn’t really been updated in a really long time, and I think there’s interest in modernizing this program, and that’s what we try to do with some of our software. 

Michael Guirguis
But from a regulatory perspective, I think Democrats and Republicans have different views on what are the core changes that need to be made. But nobody’s trying to kill the program, to my understanding. 

 
Brett
This show is brought to you by Front Lines Media, a podcast production studio that helps b two B founders launch, manage, and grow their own podcast. Now, if you’re a founder, you may be thinking, I don’t have time to host a podcast. I’ve got a company to build. Well, that’s exactly what we’ve built our service to do. You show up and host, and we handle literally everything else. To set up a call to discuss launching your own podcast, visit Frontlines.io podcast. Now back today’s episode. 

 
Brett
That sounds like you have a long background in labor, but you were new to the agriculture industry when you were starting the company. So because you were kind of an outsider looking into the space, you’re moving into this space. What’s the most surprising thing that you’ve learned about farming, farmers and agriculture in general? 

 
Michael Guirguis
Yeah, first of all, I mean, the move that I made, which was the best move that I made in starting this company, was convincing Jordan Taylor, my co founder, to leave Farmers Business Network and to join me on this journey. And we wouldn’t be the company we are today if he didn’t do that. There’s two different types of agriculture, and they have very different dynamics. So it’s just like a very basic framework is specialty know, which is fruits and vegetables and tree nuts and things like that. And then row crop, which is corn, wheat, and soy, highly mechanized, highly subsidized. All over the midwest you have corn, wheat, and soy farms. And then on the coast and Michigan and the rest of the country, you have a lot more specialty crop.

Michael Guirguis
And the dynamics both from how you manage that farm and how the government plays a role in what crops are being grown is extremely different. And I find that really interesting. It’s two different worlds specialty crop and row crop. The software that you use is different. The workforce that you bring in is different. The role the government plays is very different. So that to me was really interesting because most people just think, they just imagine this ideal farm with a little red barn and fields of whatever and corn or wheat or soy, and the specialty crop world is really exciting to me.

Brett
Would you ever open a farm? Let’s say the company ipos, you go public, you step down as CEO. What do you do after that? Would you ever open a farm? 

Michael Guirguis
I don’t know if I’d step down a little bit, yeah, I would definitely open a farm. I mentioned before I started the company trying to help my cousin grow her farm. And I spent a lot of time on her farm. And we know the best food in the know this amazing organic produce that she’s grown. She studied sustainable farming in Brazil and at Berkeley. And she know the best practices for growing healthy. Mean, to be able to eat that every day know would be amazing. I think a lot of investors have asked me, oh, I want to buy some farmland. And they have this know, idyllic image of what it would be like to own a farm, and they seem to forget all the hard work behind it. So own a farm. 

Michael Guirguis
If I was willing to kind of put in some work and really be involved in the operations and not just kind of own it on paper. 

 
Brett
Yeah, I just want the Instagram and social media photos. I don’t want to have to do any of the work. Now, in terms of adoption and growth, what are you seeing today? Can you share any numbers? 

 
Michael Guirguis
Yeah, we’ve been operational for three years. In terms of the size of h two a agents that support farms with helping bring in labor, were the 45th largest in the first year. We were the 7th largest last year, and we’re currently the third largest. So we’ve grown really dramatically. And that’s just kind of farms that directly use our services to bring in their labor force. There are also other farms that use our software that do this work in house. And so by any metric, we’re one of the major players. We work with 22 of the 100 largest employers in AG, whether that’s through pure software or a combination of software and services being kind of like support around getting the visa for their workforce. And it’s something we’re really proud of. 

 
Michael Guirguis
We are quickly growing as the standard for enterprise farms, but we’ve also maintained support for some of the smallest farms in the country. So a lot of the farms that we bring in, that we work with are just bringing in one or two workers and then we have farms that are bringing in 5000 plus workers. And it’s really important to us to support not just enterprise farms and enterprise employers, but also some of the mom and pop farms that helped us get our first start. 

 
Brett
You mentioned you’re number three today. What needs to happen for you to become number one? And how far away do you think that is?

Michael Guirguis
I think it’s a year or two away. I think there are certain products that we’re launching that kind of go within the suite of our service offering. That just makes it a no brainer that you want to work with us to be your partner in the h two a program. And so we’re building those products and we’re learning from our employers and our customers. And I think it’s going to happen organically. We have a sales team, but we do very little marketing outside of webinars and attending events. And we really try to partner with farms that understand the value of our software but also care about compliance. So we’re not just going to say yes to every farm if we don’t think that we have the same values aligned. 

 
Brett
It was maybe a media article or another podcast that you did, but I think someone talked about you as the gusto for agriculture. Is that a fair way to summarize how you think about yourself or how we could package you up?

Michael Guirguis
There’s definitely a lot of truth to that. It’s really hard to put us into one of those categories. The gusto for agriculture, the rippling for agriculture, or the work rise for agriculture, because our model is extremely unique. So the crux of the software payroll, onboarding benefits, I mean those are things that you’ll see a lot of parallels in our software. But then the immigration side is pretty unique. I almost think about it like deal helps american companies or companies hire people abroad and then employ them abroad and takes care of the paperwork in the background. And we’re helping american farms bring in a foreign workforce and employ them legally in a compliant way in the US.

Michael Guirguis
And then over time we plan to expand into other blue collar industries that have a shortage of labor in the US and need to bring in workers on visas. So I think that’s like one way to think about it is streamlining and simplifying employing an international workforce in the US. 

 
Brett
What do you attribute to all the success you’ve had so far? Because throughout this conversation you make it sound easy. These are some of these problems that founders struggle with. You’ve just blown right past them. So what do you think you’ve gotten right? 

 
Michael Guirguis
I mean, I think the first thing is the market. So to disrupt a market, you need to have a big market, a growing market, a fragmented market with a complex problem and an opportunity for technology to improve that problem. And we have all those things in space. The second thing is focus. I mean, there’s a lot of really shiny objects. AG has so much opportunity for improvement. It’s such a laggard industry in a lot of ways that there’s a lot of different things we could have jumped into early on, whether that’s accounting or bi tools. And we really tried to stay maniacally focused on the labor problem. And I think that focus has helped a ton. And then the third is just listening to customers. So I spent a ton of time early on just driving and flying to farms all over the country. 

 
Michael Guirguis
I’ve visited hundreds of farms in the last few years, my co founder as well. And we try to do more listening than talking. And farmers have a lot of alone time. So when they open up, they really talk and you learn a ton about the problems they face. The industry, who’s come and tried to address those problems in the past and why it didn’t work. So just kind of being open to listening to farms and then taking that, documenting it and sharing it with your team and figuring out, okay, now we know about this problem. How do we address that with our software? How do we improve what we’re offering to farms based on what we’re hearing in the field? Like literally in the field. Right. 

 
Brett
What keeps you up at night? 

Michael Guirguis
Speed, I would say. I mean, we move really fast, but the number one advantage that a startup has is speed. Companies that have been doing this a long time, they’re not going to listen and move as fast as we are. And at the same time we hear about companies popping up, trying to copy our model, or trying to tackle the market from a different angle, from a different entry point product. And we have a clear vision of where we want to be in the next few years. And you don’t know until you’re at it if the path that you’re taking to get there is the right path. We just know the end state is super clear. And so I want to make sure we’re the first ones to tackle the biggest problems that our customers face. 

 
Michael Guirguis
That’s one of our core values, is solve the farm’s biggest problems. 

 
Brett
As I mentioned there in the intro, you’ve raised nearly 30 million in funding. What have you learned about fundraising so far? 

 
Michael Guirguis
Don’t take anything for granted would be one. So I raised initially during the peak of fundraising in the last 20 years, where it almost felt easy at times because we had traction, we had an exciting market, but also just the market was so ripe for companies like ours to come in with a bold vision. And now, similarly, we are continuing to grow like crazy. We’ve got a super talented team, but the market has changed. And so you need to adapt and not just assume. The way you approach things early on in fundraising is going to be exactly how it is in the next round. Each round is very different because the market is different, because the expectations are different. So just kind of being ready to adapt and not taking things for granted. And then two is really focusing on people. 

 
Michael Guirguis
So we’ve got some great investors that I’ve learned a lot from, but some of the best investors are angel investors that are not from a fund you’ve ever heard of, but they’re putting insane amounts of effort and time and thoughtfulness into supporting us. And so brands matter and we’ve got phenomenal brands. And then the individual people you’re going to work with and spend time with, you want to make sure you admire them, you can learn from them, you like them, and it’s not just about getting the best brand names on your cap table. 

 
Brett
If you were starting the company again today from scratch, what would be the number one piece of advice that you’d give to yourself? 

 
Michael Guirguis
Great question. Just be more decisive. I mean, there are very few big decisions that I regret. I don’t regret any of the big decisions, I should say, but I wish I made some of them sooner. Because the big decisions, you often know in your gut that you need to make them, whether it’s letting someone go, or bringing someone really expensive on, or raising money or not raising money, all the time you spend deliberating on these big decisions and then you end up going with your gut 90% of the time, if not more. And you would save yourself a lot of wasted time and stress. If you just are more decisive going into those decisions. 

Brett
What’s the single biggest, most important decision that you’ve made? 

 
Michael Guirguis
It’s without a doubt getting Jordan Taylor to become my co founder and work with me on this because it was just an idea and it was a crazy idea because I didn’t have an ag background and he was someone that I’d met and admired and knew we would complement each other really well. And so getting him on board was the best decision. And then, second, maybe, is getting our CRO Julie Harris, who came out of Flexport, who’s total badass and just such a professional, so good at her job. Getting her on board was also a really big one. 

 
Brett
We’re almost up on time here, so just one final question. Let’s zoom out three to five years into the future. What’s the big picture vision that you’re. 

 
Michael Guirguis
Building three years from now? We want to be the operating system for farms where you hire and manage your workforce, both workers on this visa and domestic. You handle your timekeeping, your payroll, your insurance, your HR. Basically an end to end platform that I think is a pretty unique model. There’s not a ton of industries that have that, but that’s how much opportunity there is in AG, and I would say five years is. We see a lot of these same problems in other industries, in landscaping and forestry, fisheries, truck drivers, construction. They all have labor shortages. They all have kind of pain points related to not only bringing in labor on visas, but then also being compliant in how you do payroll and manage the different regulations of a domestic and international workforce working next to each other. 

 
Michael Guirguis
And so expanding what we’re doing today into other industries is definitely in our roadmap with a focus on blue collar industries that need temp labor or seasonal labor. 

 
Brett
Amazing. We are going to have to wrap here. Before we do, if any founders listening in just want to follow along with your journey. Where should they go? 

 
Michael Guirguis
I’m a bit of a dinosaur in that I’m not big on Twitter or X. I post everything on LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn hours every week just looking for talent, reaching out to people, chatting with people, posting about our company on LinkedIn. So it’s not the sexiest platform, but it’s my platform. 

 
Brett
Michael, thanks so much for taking the time to chat. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation, and I know it’s going to be a hit with our audience as well, so really appreciate it. 

Michael Guirguis
Well, thanks, Bret. Appreciate the time. 

 
Brett
Keep in touch. 

 
Brett
This episode of category Visionaries is brought to you by Front Lines Media, Silicon Valley’s leading podcast production studio. If you’re a B2B founder looking for help launching and growing your own podcast, visit Frontlines.io podcast. And for the latest episode, search for category visionaries on your podcast platform of choice. Thanks for listening, and we’ll catch you. 

 
Michael Guirguis
On the next episode.