The following interview is a conversation we had with Max Bruner, CEO and Founder of Anzen Insurance, on our podcast Category Visionaries. You can view the full episode here: $10 Million Raised to Build the Future of Executive Risk Insurance.

Max Bruner
Great to be here today, Brett. 

Brett
Yeah, super excited to chat with you. So to kick things off, could we just start with a quick summary of who you are and a bit more about your background? 

Max Bruner
Yeah, sure. I really didn’t start my career rearing in tech. It really began kind of in a different part of the world, focused on US foreign policy in the Middle East and US energy policy in the Obama administration. So it’s been an interesting journey to wind up in California building the insurance company, of all things. In grad school, I took a big right turn and started building companies. I worked to build companies basically for over a decade as a Founder and at later stage three IPO companies. I for the most part been a B to B focused entrepreneur who’s worked in everything from hardware like drones to agriculture, data science, corn, soy, wheat, cotton production. And I’ve had a particular interest and subject matter expertise insurer technology for probably the last, going on seven years. I like finance, or sort of like finance. Insurance is this modern world thing that makes the world function. 

Max Bruner
Banking is probably the first largest industry in the world. Insurance is the second largest industry in the world. Cocktail parties. I love to talk about insurance, which is bit strange, but I really think it’s something that makes the world work. And this is a key part of why I’ve been so focused on this industry, from crop insurance to auto insurance in some cases, and now management liability or commercial financial insurance. I’m specifically passionate about applications of AI and software to the largest industries and that’s really what we’re doing in the insurance industry. And I love working with founders, builders and creatives to basically pay it forward and help them with their companies too. 

Brett
Is there a specific fact about the insurance industry that you find surprising that you like to share with people? 

Max Bruner
I think one of the stories of the insurance industry that I love is that if you look back to really the 15 hundreds, 16 hundreds, we probably wouldn’t have had as much ocean exploration, as much sort of human risk taking if it wasn’t for things like Lloyds of London and maritime insurance. And I just love this fact that this kind of really boring thing. We kind of hate to buy, kind of hate to think about, really is the thing that also enabled human exploration. And I think that will continue. 

Brett
And can you take us back to that coffee shop in London where this all began? If I have that right. I think this all started in a coffee shop, right? 

Max Bruner
So I’m trying to think about kind of the origin story here. There’s so many different pieces. I mean, it almost begins when I was basically running other companies and buying directors and officers insurance. It’s like this policy that as a Founder, you have to buy because you raise funding and it’s literally written into your term sheet by DNO, your board asks you for it. And yeah, I was sitting in a coffee shop and talking to a Founder about this, thinking through some of the different ideas. At this time, I was thinking about starting a new company, most likely in the insurance industry. And this person who knows me well know Max, we’ve been talking about starting an insurance company for years. Please help me solve my P. No problem. And this was sort of circa COVID and all the SPACs were happening, companies were going public and the pricing for directors and officers insurance was off the charts and it was super painful coverage to buy. 

Max Bruner
And so I started digging in and literally, I kid you not, nine out of ten founders that I spoke to had the same problem. And that was just like a eureka moment. Like that true pain, consistency. And that’s when we really started to dig into liability insurance space. 

Brett
And why is it so painful and why is this process so bad today, do you think? 

Max Bruner
I think because it’s a really complex type of insurance. It’s a kind of coverage that I think a lot of people don’t fully understand. So it’s been a misnomer sort of that directors and officers is just for specific people in the company. This is a coverage that can extend to virtually any person who can be accused of harmful acts while acting on behalf of the company. So it’s really like an umbrella liability protection in an era of evolving workplace complexities. Dei. We’ve got Black Lives Matter. We’ve had a lot of sort of social unrest. I think that’s led to a lot of workplace unrest, COVID being one of those things. And so it’s become one of these coverages that if you’re a company of over, frankly, ten people or you’ve raised venture capital, you almost have to have it. It’s almost a mandatory coverage. And I don’t think this was on the radar as much before because frankly, weren’t exposed to as much risk before, but it’s really been evolving over the last five years, especially. 

Brett
What factors are leading to that? Is the risk increasing? 

Max Bruner
I think, first of all, you’ve got a lot of companies who’ve raised money. I mean, think about the valuations over the last five years, or really ten years. We went through an incredible boom cycle in Silicon Valley and frankly, across the country. Low interest rates led to lots of lending, led to lots of equity investments, which led to, frankly, larger and larger balance sheets for more and more companies, especially ones that were unprofitable, and so they had some financial risk and that leads to a lot of exposures. In addition to ENL, one of the big coverages that we also offer is Employment Practices Liability, which kind of goes as a bundled coverage with DNL. An EPL is what protects you if you get sued, for example, by an employee that you fire. Wrongful termination, sexual harassment, other types of workplace misconduct. And as I mentioned before, we’ve had so many people have been hired into these companies, these fast growing companies, but also now a lot of people have been fired, and that’s created tremendous volatility in the workplace. 

Max Bruner
One thing I want to also mention about why these things are so complex is to get this kind of insurance. Unlike almost everything else that you can purchase insurance land, these things are like 1215 page PDF applications. The way that you buy this product hasn’t changed for 30 years. It’s literally the same form that you have to fill out every single year, every year that you renew. And it’s just an incredibly cumbersome process. Brokers have a hard time selling it and have a hard time getting all the data they need, like cap tables, financials payroll data, and companies just abhor filling out these applications. And then of course, the bill is massive. So I think one, as were talking about before, there’s a lot of complexity to buying it, but then the actual coverage is something that it’s actually kind of hard to understand, but it’s super critical if you wind up in a lawsuit. 

Max Bruner
And that’s really when this kind of coverage kicks in, is if you get sued by an employee, by an investor, some coming after your personal wealth, you really need this as a coverage to protect you. 

Brett
And I would guess that there’s many small business owners and many startup, founders of early stage startups, who just believe that this is big company stuff. These are the types of things you have to worry about when a company gets big. But I read online or on your website that it was 42% of startups and small businesses get sued by their employees, is that correct? Four out of ten. 

Max Bruner
Isn’t that wild? Yeah. If you’re in business for three to five years, you are highly likely to wind up in a lawsuit. A lot of my CEO friends joke that it just comes with success. Frankly, the more successful you are, the more likely, at some point as your company grows, as the balance sheet increases, as the equity at stake increases, and you bring on more investors that some kind of dispute is going to happen. So that’s right. It’s something that is important, not just for Elon Musk when he tweets that Abu Dhabi is going to buy Tesla and a bunch of investors get angry. And that’s an important part of what DNO offers protection for as well. Class action lawsuits for public companies, but in the private space, it’s a whole other layer of protection that is critical for companies and execs. 

Brett
Well, it makes sense, right? You kind of get a target on your back the second the Tech Crunch article hits. You raise $15 million in funding, people see dollar signs in their eyes, then all of a sudden you’re a target, right? 

Max Bruner
Totally. And then you layer your product manager with a senior product manager, and they ask, Why wasn’t I promoted? And then a lot of tension is created. So there’s a lot of challenges as you grow. There’s also, of course, in the current market, a lot of challenges as you restructure your company and unfortunately, have to lay off people, too. 

Brett
As I look through the list of different types of coverage that you provide, I see kidnap and Extortion on there. How common is Kidnap and extortion? Is that a big thing to. 

Max Bruner
Have be worried about that’s less common. That’s one where I may not have a ton to say on this one, but it is something that executives do buy, especially for trips to certain parts of the world. And it’s actually more common than you think for executives to buy it. If you think about it, there are key people at a company, and you really need to make sure that you’ve got protection, because if something happens, if you get lost in the world and you’re not around to run the company, that creates tons of liability. So, yeah, Kidnap and Extortion is an odd one, but it is actually more common than you think to purchase it for key people. 

Brett
Frankly, it just sounds cool too, right? Having kidnap and extortion, that would sound super cool. 

Max Bruner
And you get a helicopter or something to rescue you. 

Brett
Nice. I love that. Now, I’ve never bought this type of insurance, so could you maybe just help me visualize what it would look like going with the legacy options and then compare that with what it looks like when I go through buying it with you or from you? 

Max Bruner
Sure. So not everyone has an insurance broker, but I can tell you that if you’re a company just getting started, there’s a very good chance you’ll wind up with a broker sooner rather than later. And the reason for that is there’s just a lot of different products that you’re going to wind up buying, whether it be cyber or workers comp or health benefits. And it just gets too complicated to buy all those things direct. Despite kind of a trend over the last ten years for tech companies to start direct to consumer insurance products. The process likely for a lot of our policyholders is they wind up talking to a broker, referred to them by a friend or an investor. That broker then gives them, as I mentioned before, a twelve to 15 page PDF. That PDF asks a lot of arcade questions, and it can take days to fill this out. 

Max Bruner
Once that PDF is submitted, then the broker takes that and sends it out to the market. So they’ll either take it out to a marketplace or what they call a wholesaler, or they’ll take it directly to a carrier, like some of the big incumbents or a company like ours. That process can take for most of the incumbents, five to ten working days just to get a quote. It’s an incredibly long process. It’s not like you have this on your checklist and you can just get it done in the same day. What we’ve done differently is if a broker works with us, they both get access to our digital application, which is an incredibly shortened version of that application. So I think it literally takes five minutes to fill it out. If you so choose, you can connect your payroll, your HRAs system, even your cap table management system, things like Carta. 

Max Bruner
And we will basically automatically look at all the information that we need to underwrite you as a potential policyholder or give you a quote. And I mentioned these things, these integrations, because in addition to that application, if you’re just filling out that PDF, you’re not done with the application, the underwriter will come back to you and ask, the broker will come back and ask for your automated financials. They’ll ask for your cap table. They might even ask for a payroll, like, who’s in the company? So these are all separate data requests that are super annoying. And what we try to do is build essentially a single sign on approach that just uses APIs to pull that information. So working with us, five minute application, access to the data without having to go find it, find the right version of a CFC file, talk to your accountant, and then we quote, in under 24 hours. 

Max Bruner
And so brokers love working with us because it’s super fast, much lower friction experience for them. They don’t have to sit and wait for a week or two. And the clients we have, the companies that we work with, love working with it because it’s just less work. And that’s been incredibly effective as we begin to scale across the US. 

Brett
It reminds me of when I first got health insurance for our company. So this would have been like 2017, and I had a friend of a friend who introduced me to a broker. And basically what you were just describing, I got these long PDFs, tiny font, and I was reading it like, what does this stuff mean? Like, my brain hurt trying to make these arcade. 

Max Bruner
I forgot to even say. We’ve tried to just work through the language. So we present the quote. You actually know what we call a retention, but what your deductible is, like, how much it actually is, what your options are. And it’s crazy how difficult it is to sort of parse the quotes that you’re getting. One other thing that it didn’t mention is that once you actually get our policy, every policyholder gets access to our risk management platform. We call it management operations. And it’s essentially a compliance platform that tracks all of your HR documentation, constantly monitors whether or not employees have signed their documents, they’re compliant in the states that they’re in, and it lets you, as a manager, just make sure that you’re doing the right things to keep the company safe. And in case you are sued, you have all the data you need to really quickly resolve it. 

Max Bruner
And so that’s been when we say proactive, that’s what we mean. We offer software that’s constantly monitoring using a number of AI models that we’ve built on the top law firms in the country, and all of their documentation for, like, offer letters, IP agreements, Trevidation agreements, employee handbooks. And it’s really boring stuff. Like, it seems like it’s boring, but we try to automate a lot of it and basically tell you where your gut gaps super interesting. 

Brett
And then is it dynamic? Is the rate changing or are there new risk factors that are introduced? Or what does that look like? 

Max Bruner
I mean, these policies are annual, so you’ll get quoted, you’ll get protection for a year. Your rate might actually change in the next policy year. What we try to do is we’re trying to build a product that if you use the Proactive software, it actually allows us to potentially give you a better rate or a better deductible, making it easier for you to pay less for your insurance or get better coverage. 

Brett
And then am I interfacing with Anzen at? Like, the other side of my story is I had that horrible experience with the Barbara broker, and then I signed up with Gusto. We did health benefits through there, and it was literally like three clicks and I was done. We had health insurance, notified everyone, and it was good to and like, that difference in that experience was insane. It was like Taxi versus Uber. You can’t even compare it. So is it similar here? Am I interacting with and interfacing with you through a platform like Gusto? Or am I going direct and you’re pulling that data from Gusto? 

Max Bruner
So you are going direct or you’re actually working with a and so but once we’ve got you in the platform, then what we’re trying to build is an automated renewal process. So if you haven’t had any claims, if there haven’t been any issues with your company, if not, a lot of risk has changed. Maybe the risk has even reduced. We’ll actually help you not have to fill out an application again. So the way that we think about it is you got to go through some of the hoops to get the product in the first place. But we’ve reduced a lot of the pain of even first time buyers. And then after that, we hope you never have to go through any of that pain again. And what that means is maybe you’ll answer three questions, click two or three things, maybe you haven’t integrated your payroll, for example, and then we can sort of streamline the whole process. 

Max Bruner
And I think that’s going to be a really big game changer for this industry niche because it’s just every year I love this anecdote my broker used to send me the PDF application at renewal and say, well, here’s the application again for you to fill out as a courtesy. Here’s your application from last year. It was like this ridiculous. That was the most the broker did to help. And I think it’s not the broker’s fault. We’re trying to give them better tools so it’s much easier to buy and keep the insurance. 

Brett
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Max Bruner
We mostly market to brokers since that’s our distribution channel. But in a number of cases, we have companies who are requesting our product when they go to a broker. So, yeah, we basically market to everyone from a CFO to key execs like general counsel, the head of HR, people who tend to buy or initiate the purchase of this insurance. And what we want is we want a company who’s working with a broker to basically request our product because they just know that it’s a better experience. They’re getting more for their money, they’re getting software that actually helps them do their day to day job. And ultimately it reduces a lot of the friction of keeping this coverage. So we sort of market to those two audiences, mostly for the benefit of the broker and also for the benefit of educating, I think, the market. 

Brett
What’s the demographic of the brokers that are signing up? Are these like the digitally native kind of younger generation or next generation of brokers? Or do you have some that have been doing this for 50 years who are open to new technology and they dive in and start exploring this with you. 

Max Bruner
What’s that general demographic profile so interestingly? It’s a wide range. I mean we are active across California, Illinois, Pacific Northwest. We’re licensed in I think 37 or 40 states now. And the range of broker we work with is exactly as you described. Someone who’s been in the business their entire career. This could be going on 30, 40 years. And our teams is frankly a team of people who’ve been in the insurance and the brokerage industry for 20 to 30 years. So we have deep relationships in some parts of the country. But then we also have people who are just beginning to potentially take over their brokerage as kind of the next generation and they love this product because it actually gives them something that makes them look great. An insurance broker doesn’t necessarily want to just be your broker, they want to be seen as your sort of trusted risk advisor. 

Max Bruner
And the reality is insurance brokers know a shit ton about how your company might get in trouble. So they’re totally worth consulting. The problem is that they’ve never really been given products to sell that both help them and help the customer to have a better experience and educate them and constantly track the risk. So we find the kind of tech forward brokers love our risk management products and they love digital application. We find some folks who’ve been in the industry for years who want to change or they want to sort of step into a new type of product and in some cases they just love working with our team because we’re so knowledgeable about this product type. 

Brett
Is there anyone that hates you guys that looks at this and says like I don’t know, this is too much change. I don’t know what’s wrong with the PDFs, like we have a good thing, why is Max coming in here to screw it up? Is there anything like that? 

Max Bruner
Yes. I mean don’t get me wrong, we actually work with PDFs too. So if you send us a PDF, we will automatically scan it into our system and still can get you a quote in under 24 hours. So we’ve basically trained our own optical character recognition scanning system so we can take the structure to those PDFs just to make sure that anybody can send us any form of this application and we can transact. So that’s been our way around being hated because I think, yeah, in some cases the industry hasn’t want to change because if you think about it, if you apply through PDF then you can send it out to multiple insurance carriers. What we do is we enable you if you want to apply digitally, we’ll actually still send that application to multiple carriers because our goal is to help the broker and help the client ultimately just get coverage. 

Max Bruner
So whether it’s our Anzing product, it’s even a traveler’s product, we actually just want to help them get the best product and make that transaction a lot easier and frictionless. 

Brett
And from a regulatory perspective, you said it was in 49 states, is that correct? 

Max Bruner
I believe we’re in 40 states now, but we’re on track to be probably licensed 50 by the end of the year. 

Brett
Is this just like a regulatory nightmare? Is there a lot of regulatory aspects that you have to try to manage or what’s that like for you? 

Max Bruner
I mean, any insurance company has a lot of what’s amazing is we just have an extraordinary team that’s done this before. I can’t imagine building this company without having the kind of team we have. These are folks who they’ve run insurance operations, regulatory operations for massive insurance brokerages and insurance carriers. And so I think I’ve just been incredibly lucky to not have to deal with this on my own. And really, the licensing is just a lot of paperwork and it’s a lot of time, a lot of fingerprints, a lot of like every state has their own requirements. So I think every day I kind of come to work feeling just incredibly thankful to work with a bunch of brilliant, hardworking people who have the experience and know what they’re doing that makes life a lot easier. 

Brett
Yeah, I can imagine. And is international expansion something you’re already doing or something that you’re considering? Or is that just like a whole nother beast to have to navigate the regulatory environment in different countries? And US. Is a big enough market for now. 

Max Bruner
Yeah. The US. Is definitely a big enough market for now. I mean, the management liability space, just the vertical, is probably around $30 billion of annual written premium. So it’s huge. And then sort of next to that, it’s probably things like cyber professional liability insurance, which are probably another cyber is about 15 billion. The other one’s about probably another 20 to 30 billion. They’re huge industries. This is just the US. Now. That being said, I think there are a number of applications we’d be interested in the years ahead, whether that be in Western Europe or sort of the Asian region. But for now, the US. Is definitely a big enough barrel for us to fish in. 

Brett
Yeah, with markets that size, I’m sure investors are. 

Max Bruner
Yeah, I think it’s interesting. With investors, I think you have to really educate them about InsureTech and about the size of this industry and how kind of looked over this particular kind of product is you think about the last ten years, we’ve had all this innovation in auto insurance, personalized homeowners insurance, hippo lemonade root. But the thing is, ultimately, commercial insurance has always been the most profitable, and it’s also where there’s the most potential applications. Things like generative, AI and other things that really help scale what we’re trying to do from the underwriting to the compliance to how we get quotes for brokers. 

Brett
If you had to choose one insurer tech company that you really admire and look up to or just look at what they built or how they built and say, yeah, that was a compelling way to go to market. Any companies come to mind? 

Max Bruner
I think there are a few early stage startups being run by just incredible founders. One’s called Liberate and they’re actually building a whole tooling platform for large insurance carriers to build out a bunch of digital workflows. It’s incredibly innovative. The Founder I used to work with at Metro Mile, he ran the Enterprise AI driven claimance platform that were licensing the large carriers. And I just haven’t seen a lot of founders with sort of the kind of tutzpah and ability to really rethink how to go sell some of the largest insurance carriers on the planet. I actually really admire some of the incumbents companies like Aon example, who have built and probably one that you’ve never heard of before, which is Howden Holdings, which is a big $30 billion insurance broker in London. And these are companies that over the last 2030 years become some of the largest companies on the planet by really rethinking customer service and how to kind of reshape the industry. 

Max Bruner
So I know that’s not necessarily not all tech driven plays. I think that InsureTech until recently has been a really challenging space and I think that right now there’s a lot of new companies that have learned in the last ten years and we’re about to see some incredibly profitable and valuable companies in the next few. 

Brett
And it seems like there has been a lot of capital flowing into InsureTech startups. What are you doing to really rise above all of that noise that’s been created because of all of that funding and all of those startups that have been created? Anything specific that you’re doing to rise above the noise? 

Max Bruner
This is one of the reasons we’ve decided to be such a specialist. There aren’t a lot of companies working in this management liability space. It’s not a direct to consumer play, it’s frankly to a lot of investors of the last ten years. It’s a very contrarian play. We distribute a product through insurance brokers all across the US. And we realize that 90 95% of this product is sold to brokers. And so a lot of our approach go to market is to work with brokers to make their experience working with us better. Because if we can do that and hand them a better product, the end customer gets a better product. So I would say that’s been a huge differentiator for us is talking about how we go out to the tens of thousands of commercial brokers out there and get them something better. I think also our team is just an extraordinary team. 

Max Bruner
These are folks who’ve been a part of building multiple unicorns, taking companies public and this is not sort of your ordinary Silicon Valley startup. Team. It’s a team of technology and insurance professionals who’ve been doing this for decades. And I think that really sets us apart. When we speak to investors know, we mentioned the regulatory work, we really try not to make mistakes. I mean, I think the story of InsureTech and finitex over the last few years has been a lot of missteps with regulators, a lot of missteps with building a company that’s almost like working against the way the market might want a product. And I think we’ve really tried to see the world as it is and then rise above it to give people something they need and want. 

Brett
And can you give us an idea of the growth, traction and adoption that you’re seeing? Our audience loves to hear metrics, so any metrics that you can tease us with would be awesome. 

Max Bruner
Yeah, I mean, I’ll actually discount our growth rate over the last six or seven months because we only started selling this product in the fourth quarter of last year. But when I sort of project forward and that growth has been just crazy fast. We’ve been growing, on average 60% month over month. We’ve expanded outside of California, as I mentioned before, to Texas, to Illinois, to Pacific Northwest. We’re seeing applications come in from probably many of those 37, 40 states that we’re licensed in. We now have over probably about 1000 brokers who are appointed with us who can quote our product and sell it to their customers. And so we probably touch today just with the brokers that we’ve appointed in the last we touch, something around $750,000,000 insurance premium for management liability. And we’re just getting started. I mean, the industry is enormous and we’ve seen a lot of traction, I think, because brokers just like a lower friction product to sell. 

Max Bruner
So that’s been incredibly rewarding to see. 

Brett
And I know you mentioned it there earlier, but we just dive in a little bit to the market category. So it’s proactive insurance, the market category that you’re creating? 

Max Bruner
Yeah, that’s right. So it’s a category where we should think about the risk not just as this thing that we use, or insurance as something that we use when something goes wrong, but as something that we use, hopefully keep ourselves safe and keep ourselves from having a problem in the first place. Like our job, we hope, as an insurance company is to prevent you from having a claim in the first place. And if we do that, we’re more profitable and you frankly have a better run company. So that’s kind of the core of what we’re trying to sell, I think. We are both innovating in the existing industry and an existing niche trying to build just a restructured version of management liability. But we’re also building with a software a different category we actually call it. So proactive insurance is that we talk about in this one big Urla, we actually call it management operations because we think that to keep companies safe, really good client, really good management, really helps. 

Max Bruner
It’s kind of the tip of the spear for keeping you out of trouble. 

Brett
Interesting. And are you spending a lot of time then, like, obsessing over your market category? Have those been active discussions internally, or is this something that you’re just starting to really think about where you want company? 

Max Bruner
Oh, my God, I’ve been thinking about this for years. I mean, I have pages and pages of sort of opining on management operations, on how as a manager, as someone who’s run companies, I’m missing so many tools to do my job more effectively. Your engineering team has all their DevOps tools. Your HR team has all of their HR tools. Your marketing and sales team have all of their tools. But the execs, the managers, they don’t have any training. They don’t have tools that give them observability into what everyone else is doing. It’s kind of a desert when it comes to helping execs do their job and stay in trouble. And so I’ve been really excited about being able to integrate with a number of different systems to help give them better insight into what’s happening in the company and where they’ve got gaps. And it’s been something we’ve thought about from the inception of the company, and we’re sort of very incrementally rolling out features as we expand across the US. 

Brett
And final question here, since I know we’re up on time, let’s zoom out into the future. What’s the three year vision for the company? What’s it going to look like three years from? 

Max Bruner
Oh, such a tough question, but Anzen is really a company that I hope is sort of a generation defining business. We’re hoping to reset the bar for service, for product quality and technology in Financial Alliance Insurance, which is just a huge opportunity. And we’re building the insurance company of the future with a culture, a tedious move and mission touch as many commercial brokers and companies in the US. And across the world with the low friction proactive protection they deserve. I think if we, in three years can begin really demonstrating just how effective proactive protection can be, how effective software can be in making it a more frictionless and better product. I think that this is an opportunity to really redefine a massive industry and really set an example for what this kind of product can be in the future. 

Bret.B2BBrett
Amazing. I love it. All right, Max, we’re going to have to wrap here before we do. If people want to follow along with your journey as you continue to build and execute on this vision, where should they go? 

Max Bruner
Well, they should definitely go to anzen.com. Anzen is actually the Japanese word for that’s. We think of ourselves really as a safety company. So our website is great. Our blog is constantly getting updated and then of course, LinkedIn. We have a great and super active LinkedIn following that’s, growing every day quite quickly right now. And we constantly are posting information about the company and the services we offer. 

Brett
Amazing. Max, thanks so much for taking time to chat, talk about what you’re building and educate us on the fact that we really need to all have kidnap and extortion insurance. That’s my big takeaway. 

Max Bruner
I need to buy this. I haven’t actually purchased this product myself. 

Brett
But it’s been really awesome, really enjoyed the conversation. I know our audience is going to as well, so thanks so much for taking the time. Likewise. 

Max Bruner
Thank you, Brett. 

Brett
All right, keep in touch. This episode of Category Visionaries is brought to you by Front Lines Media, silicon Valley’s leading podcast production studio. If you’re a B2B Founder looking for help launching and growing your own podcast, visit frontlines.io podcast. And for the latest episode, search for Category Visionaries on your podcast platform of choice. Thanks for listening and we’ll catch you on the next episode.