The following interview is a conversation we had with Paul Monasterio, CEO and Co-Founder of Kalepa, on our podcast Category Visionaries. You can view the full episode here: $16 Million Raised to Power the Future of Insurance.

 

Paul Monasterio
Great talking to you, Brett. 

Brett
So to kick things off, can we start with just a quick summary of who you are and a bit more about your background? Sure. 

Paul Monasterio
So prior to founding Kalepa, I’ve been in a number of different worn number of different hats throughout my life. I’m originally from Venezuela, came to the States for college, and I started my career as a scientist. I was a nucleophysicist, of all things, back in the day. Did some work on a number of areas, work a livermore labs, work the East Coast, and then shifted gears about 15 years ago and joined a company called Apt. Apt stands for Applied Technologies, which is what happens when you let an MIT person name a company. And it really was an older breed of what now invoke AI companies. Right. So it’s basically the earlier wave of big data analytics, predictive analytics, but really applying the scientific method experimentation to cases where it couldn’t have been done before. Particularly problems around business that affect retail locations and salesforces and other type of what I’ll call more material entities than the typical A B testing that one conducts online. 

Paul Monasterio
So I spent a number of years there. That was a very formative period of my career. Did a lot of work in the US in Asia, and then Apt was acquired by Mastercard in 2015. I worked for a period of time at Mastercard leading their technology and global technology practice using Mastercard’s data and solutions to kind of make better decisions. Then went to Facebook for a bit, worked there for some time in their advertising business and then found the caliper about five years ago. And it’s been a terrific journey since. 

Brett
One thing I want to zoom in on there, know your time. And coming from Venezuela, what was that like for you growing up in Venezuela and what was that like for you when you came to the US. For the first time? 

Paul Monasterio
It’s interesting. So there are two components we just ask, right? In Venezuela, I think for folks who have read the news of the region have gone through a rough couple decades. So I was born 85 and the probably Venezuela’s heyday when the oil chucks made the country somewhat absurdly rich over a short period of time. And that I think, probably that infusion of cash quickly probably led to some of the weakening of the institutions. And certainly the last two and a half decades had been difficult. A lot of people have emigrated. I immigrated prior to that. My family is still in Venezuela, but I came to the US. For college. Like many people know, I wanted to improve my education and went to Berkeley for undergrad. They decided to accept me and had a tremendous time there. That was not my first time in the US. 

Paul Monasterio
I had been to the US before, but I’d never been to California, and certainly I never been to a place like Berkeley. So that was pretty interesting. It was actually my first time on the West Coast. And, I mean, I loved it. I fell in love with certainly the university, but certainly with the US. Right? And now it’s been 20 plus years later, and I’m American citizen now, and it’s been a great ride. 

Brett
Have you ever watched the documentary? And I guess you probably lived it, so maybe you didn’t have to watch it, but the revolution will not be televised. 

Paul Monasterio
I have watched the documentary, and I’ll say I’ve lived it in the sense that as a Venezuelan, it’s been a core part of me growing up and seeing the country change in somewhat unfortunate ways. With all that said, though, I think different people in the country have been affected in different ways. Certainly back then when that documentary came out. Caracas, where I’m from, kind of politically, tends to be also where folks try to make things better relative to a country, because I guess the people from Caracas are the ones that can probably cause more problems, if you will. So that insulated a little bit of the worst things that happen elsewhere in the country. And then know, I think all in all, my family, while not being well off, certainly was, know, struggling, and certainly I know many of my friends were, and that was much tougher than it was for me. 

Brett
And a few other questions we’d like to ask, and the goal here is to really just better understand what makes you tick. First one, what CEO and Founder do you admire the most and what do you admire about them? 

Paul Monasterio
Yeah, it’s actually interesting because it’s almost connects to the question you asked me. And I’ve never put those two together because no one asked me those two questions next to each other. There are a lot of folks, obviously, that I admire for many reasons, right? For their intellect, for the kind of vision they’ve had, for how they’ve changed a category. One thing I really value is and just the proverbial figuring out how to pierce through obstacles and having that indefatigable will. There are two founders from two very different areas where we respect on that know, one actually, is someone that I’m not sure if a lot of people are familiar with. This guy called Heim Saban. Have you heard of him? 

Brett
No, I haven’t. 

Paul Monasterio
So heim Savan is the Founder of savan entertainment. And the biggest claim of fame for Hein saban was the power rangers in the US. So that’s the guy behind bringing the Power Rangers the franchise from Japan to the US. Back in the heim was born in Egypt, he was dirt poor, and his family moved to somewhere Asia. I believe it was Tel Aviv, give or take, 70 years ago. Saheim is probably almost 90 now, and he was shining shoes in Israel. And he’s a completely self made man. Right. The guy, purely on the basis of strong will, hustle, creativity, ingenuity, resourcefulness, has built a media empire. The story that I really absolutely love from him was with the Power Rangers and when he bought the rise to Power Rangers in Japan. One thing that is interesting, and the Power Rangers kind of like franchise in different countries and the like, is because the Power Rangers are clothed head toe. 

Paul Monasterio
Most of the time, he only had to reduce some scenes with American actors, while most of the scenes where the Power Rangers are in costume, you could reuse was from Japan as is, and just dub them. Right. That’s the kind of story that I just love, is someone that basically figures it out one way or another. So I love his story and I love what he’s built. Another similar one is Sarah Blakely from Spanx. It’s the same. Right. I see that as the same kind of principle. Sarah is almost a problem that no one’s solving and realized that really there was no one stopping her from solving it. If she just put her head down and going from selling fats machines door to building an empire in fashion, in attire, is insane. And I frankly respect the type of founders that just do that right. 

Paul Monasterio
That ultimately turn the provocative lead into gold by, of course, luck. Everyone has luck out there, but really mainly just by pure, sheer force of will. So those two are high on my know. I think there are many current kind of know in the trenches that have that same personality and style, and I find myself drawn to those kind of people. 

Brett
Yeah, I’m a huge fan of Sarah. I follow her husband a lot, jesse Kittler. So I kind of indirectly have learned a lot about Sarah from that. And I could be wrong here, but wasn’t she the youngest ever self made female billionaire, I believe? 

Paul Monasterio
I think that’s right. Yeah, I believe that’s the case. 

Brett
Yeah. Her story is wild. I think there was some crazy story where she first got her product into Nordstrom’s and she went got all of her friends to go buy it from Nordstrom’s, paid them back so that it would show sales and show traction, so Nordstrom would roll it out. Some crazy story like that, which really shows, like, the amount of hustle it takes to get things off the ground. 

Paul Monasterio
In the early absolutely. She’s terrific. I don’t know her personally, but every time I learn something new about Sarah exactly what you mentioned. Right. It just really exemplifies what it means to hustle, to be creative, to be resourceful. 

Brett
Totally agree. Now, what about books? And the way we like to frame this is we call it a Quake book. So a Quake book is a book that rocks you to your core. It changes how you think about the world and how you view the world and really impacts what drives you day to day. Do any Quake books come to mind for you? 

Paul Monasterio
Yeah, I do. I think there are many books that change me, but I think there are two specific books that I come back too often when I get asked this question. And I have for actually interestingly enough, for a while, because these books, I think, are fairly timeless and made sense to me before I even got into business. I was doing things that were completely different, frankly, from what I do now. And they have nothing to do with either sides or business. One book that made me look at the world differently was Guns, Germs, and Steel. By the book, Jared Diamond is a geographer. He’s an academic that writes about anthropological things that are anthropological change in historical timeframes, that are driven by geography. Right. I think a big part of his theory of how the world works is many things that appear to be a result of that appear unexplainable, can be explained by just where did something happen to occur geographically? 

Paul Monasterio
And this book, Gun Jumps and Steel has a number of holes. Right. Basically, the book is not watertight, and I don’t think any ambitious book is. But I do like the ambition. Right. The book’s premise is we’re going to explain pretty much most of history based on these type of crops brew in this part of the world, and these type of domesticated animals were found here. And because of that, you can see differences income today. And while that is not entirely that linear, that simple, I love to see a book that takes itself seriously, rigorously and tackling what, in my opinion, is the most ambitious question of all, which is, why are things the way they are now? So that’s one book I love, and I reread it periodically because it brings me some level of perspective. A second book that is kind of completely unrelated is a novel. 

Paul Monasterio
And it’s a novel from the probably about 100 years ago, from the early 1920s by a Norwegian writer called Newt Hansen. It’s called growth of the soil. And this book is really pretty much 500 pages of beautiful prose about the Norwegian countryside in the early 20th century. You’re like, what the heck does that do for you? I like how in many ways, that book made me appreciate the simpler things in life. I feel like what I’ve done my whole career, my whole life has been kind of dive into the deep end on a number of things that are what I’ll call complex and that brings me a lot of joy. But I like to at some point you just got to pause and look at the fact that, hey, there’s a beautiful world out there. And that book does that for me. Right. It’s someone through, again, hard work building something out of nowhere in a forest in the middle of nowhere and a book talking about that and the generations that came out of that. 

Paul Monasterio
You know, I think those two have been books that I reread periodically that frankly don’t have anything to do with what I do now, but I think fundamentally have a lot to do with the kind of personally and the way. 

Brett
I look at it, that’s super fascinating. And both those sound like super interesting books. As you were talking, I looked it up on Amazon and I added it to Carp and I saw one of the endorsements there, so strong endorsement coming from you, Paul, but also pretty strong one coming from Bill Gates. He said, Fascinating lays the foundation for understanding human history. So that sounds like a really compelling read. I’ll check that first one out and then I’ll dive into the second one from there. 

Paul Monasterio
I’m sure you’ll enjoy it. 

Brett
Let’s switch gears now. Let’s talk about the company a bit. So can you just paint a picture for us at a high level of what the company does? 

Paul Monasterio
Sure. So, Kalepa, we are in the business of helping insurance underwriters do their jobs better. And the job of an insurance underwriter is, you know, everybody, every business in the world needs insurance because bad things happen. And the process of getting insurance is, let’s call it not, you know, a business seeking insurance because they want to transfer the risk to another party and ultimately an insurance company. And an underwriter of that company is trying to assess, well, what is the risk, what things could go right and what things could go wrong. That process of underwriting, because of its nature is very complex. It’s time consuming, it’s prone with difficulties. So what we do as a company is we have built a platform, software platform that helps the underwriters and what we call bind with confidence. Binding is the term, right? When you issue a policy and it binds. 

Paul Monasterio
Right. And that takes really two core components. The first one is helping the underwriter understand what opportunities are most suitable for them. Some type of insurance companies are better suited to write certain type of businesses. Some underwriters prefer to write certain type of businesses. So not all opportunities that come in their direction are created equal. So we help them. We use visual intelligence, we use machine learning to really recommend to them what is the best opportunity based on a lot of information that we know about. And then the second piece is helping them understand the business. What is it that they do? What are the exposures, the things that could go wrong, the outsized risk and controls, the things that this business owner is doing well to control, to mitigate that so they can get to the right decision? And what goes behind the scenes? 

Paul Monasterio
There is there’s a lot of data out there that we can take advantage of to make those two decisions better. But you need to do it in the right way to help the underwriters do their job better. And ultimately, our platform copilot is that it is exactly obviously with the gen AI, everyone and their mother has a copilot. But our copilot has been around for a number of years doing exactly that, helping those underwriters who are their pilots make the best possible decisions they can, do their job the best possible way they can. 

Brett
This show is brought to you by Front Lines Media, a podcast production studio that helps B2B founders launch, manage and grow their own podcast. Now, if you’re a Founder, you may be thinking, I don’t have time to host a podcast, I’ve got a company to build. Well, that’s exactly what we built our service to do. You show up and host and we handle literally everything else. To set up a call to discuss launching your own podcast, visit frontlines.io podcast. Now, back today’s episode and take us back to 2018 when you were first starting the company. What were those early conversations like and how did you discover this problem? Because it doesn’t sound like you come from this yellow background where you were grinding away as an insurance underwriter yourself, saw the problem. Where did your discovery of the problem come from? 

Paul Monasterio
Yeah, absolutely. You’re right that I’m not an underwriter by training. I don’t claim to be one. Sometimes I play one on TV. But the origin of learning, understanding and falling in love with that problem comes from my stint at Apt. So my Co-Founder and I both worked there and we joined early and were building together the insurance practice. My Co-Founder from kind of what was at that point the sales side. And then I had more of a data science operations hat. So we work with a lot of financial services companies, certainly banking elsewhere, but we also work with a lot of the largest carriers, insurance carriers in the world, us, UK, and in Australia, et cetera. So we really started understanding the pain points in the industry, not as insiders, but as advisors, right, and seeing how we can use technology to help. 

Paul Monasterio
We were working on planes, were working distribution. But Ken coming back to underwriting because at the end of the day, the business of insurance is the business of understanding and pricing risk. So that was my exposure to it. But the more I learned about the problem, the more I realized that it is in the class of problems that I’m naturally drawn towards despite what might see the dissimilarities between them. I’m a scientist by training and insurance is the one industry that was taking data seriously hundreds of years prior to calculators. You think through the origins of insurance was when there were all the boats coming from Europe to the Americas and to Asia. For a variety of reasons, the folks in Lloyds in London, back centuries ago, had to figure out a way to mitigate the risk of whether those expeditions will make it through or there will be any type of catastrophic calamity. 

Paul Monasterio
And that’s really the origins of insurance. Right. Those folks were alling information about losses and about frequency of different types of outcomes by hand on pieces of paper hundreds of years ago and really a lot of folks claim that actuaries which is obviously what that profession became one of the first data scientists. So the nature of using data seriously for a problem that has a lot of complexity to me is very analogous to the type of problems that one sees in physics that I’ve seen and that I’ve seen in data science and intelligence when were at Apt. So that transition intellectually was one that was very appealing to me and frankly, I’m not unique to it. I mean, it’s interesting when you look a lot of the profiles of folks insureTech. Now, a lot of folks do come with that strong industry background, and they bring something obviously very unique. 

Paul Monasterio
But you do see a lot of people that come from an intelligence background, special people coming from the Israeli intelligence, and a lot of folks that come from a scientific background, right? They come from physics, they come from engineering, they come from mathematics and I think they are drawn to that same complexity and yet trying to impact something that’s very simple which is can we help the business owner be taken care of when things go know? 

Brett
One of my favorite books is a book called The Outsiders. And I first heard about it from Bill Ackman. And it tells the story of, I think, eight different CEOs who know industry outsiders who came in and have been very successful. And Bill Ackman was talking about how he looks for CEOs like that to back, because that outside perspective can be very valuable. So it sounds like that’s where you’re coming in from, right? You’re coming in with fresh eyes, you’re not tied down to the way things were. You’re able to really think in a totally fresh and unique way which I’m sure has had a huge impact in the company. 

Paul Monasterio
That’s right. I think I benefit from being an outsider in the sense that I’ve seen the application of artificial intelligence, of data science, of technology at large across industries in productive ways and I bring some of that to the industry. However, we do that with a perspective of a tremendous amount of humility as well. Because as outsiders, we also know there are many things that the industry has been doing right for a long time. 

Brett
Right. 

Paul Monasterio
The reality is that you don’t build 100 year old companies that have stood the test of time if you don’t know what you’re doing. So we do combine that view of outsiders and tech focus and really understanding what you can do versus what it’s being done now, but with a lot of humility for the hard work that the underwriters and insurance companies are doing day to day. 

Brett
And just to tie this into some recent news, I think it was yesterday that I saw in a newsletter I follow that Farmers Insurance was pulling out of all home and auto insurance in the state of Florida due to weather risk. So is something like your platform or something similar or the underwriting department would run numbers and say, all right, we’ve done the calculations like Florida no good anymore, we’re out on Florida. Is that what would be happening behind the scenes? 

Paul Monasterio
Well, so generally mean that kind of decision at the macro level, cutting a product is not taken lightly by a know, certainly they’re doing so being informed by solutions like Aleppa. But certainly there’s a more nuanced perspective, right? When you have the capability at hand, it’s not just saying let’s just get out of Florida. That’s a very stroke, I would say fairly coarse decision. You could say, well, can we write Florida profitably by understanding which risks need more coverage, which risks need less, where I can price, where I can up price. And generally speaking, our clients are in that direction, right? It’s not just let’s take a blunt instrument, but can we be very intelligent while making strong individual decisions that move the portfolio, that move the book in the direction of profitability for the insurance carrier, but also ultimately providing the coverage needed by your customers? 

Paul Monasterio
There of course, is one big component insurance that is critical, which is insurance obviously very regulated. So when you tell me about homeowners insurance in Florida, we’re very focused on the commercial lens, which is insurance for businesses as opposed to for individuals. But when you think of homeowners insurance in Florida, obviously a core challenge. There is regulation, right? There’s regulation for a reason, because a lot of Florida without regulation probably will be uninsurable for hurricanes, right? And obviously that’s not getting any easier with some of the changes were seeing these days. The flip side of that though is that then you get some of these situations where if the regulators and the industry are not really on the same page and the policyholders, then some of the players just simply say, I give up, I cannot touch this market anymore and make any money from it. 

Paul Monasterio
But our clients are trying to take a much more nuanced approach that our technology labels into. 

Brett
And let’s switch gears here a little bit. Let’s talk about growth. Are there any numbers or metrics that you can share that demonstrate some of the growth and traction you’re seeing in the market today? 

Paul Monasterio
Yeah, certainly. I mean, I think we’re seeing strong adoption in the marketplace. There are a number of indicators that we track, but there are two in particular, of course. One is how many customers are serving and we have more than double that in the last six months. So I’m really excited for that. This year has been good for our business and there’s been two driving forces. One we have no control over, which is exactly what you mentioned. We’re seeing a lot of hardening in the market. We’re seeing that it’s more difficult to write insurance that increases demand for solutions like Copi, which is how can you do it right? And because of that, we’ve seen a significant tailwind over the last six months. Rates are increasing and then folks are pulling from the market, so that flight to quality is critical. The second one is the product has gotten to a point where, and not just product technology, that we’re able to utilize. 

Paul Monasterio
All these advances in large language models, we’re very well positioned to utilize to accelerate the type of value that we can create and that has enabled us to grow our client count. The other thing we look at and really is kind of our metric of market share, a lot of people don’t realize how big insurance is. Insurance is 8% of GDP, commercial insurance, world GDP, commercial insurance alone is a trillion dollars in revenue per year globally. So when we take that as the size of the pie right now our clients are using Copilot to write a couple of billion dollars of free. So a couple of billion dollars sounds like a really big number. But when you put it that you divide by a trillion, we’re 1000 of the way where we want to go. If we want to ensure that every single transaction out there is being underwritten perfectly, taking all this information into account, making the right decision for the policyholder and for the insurance carrier, we still have ways to go. 

Paul Monasterio
But I’m happy where we are and the traction that we have gotten over the last couple of years. 

Brett
From marketing and sales perspective. What are you doing and what have you gotten right to rise above all that noise? Because I have to imagine that obviously you’re not the first Founder to say, hey, there’s this massive mega opportunity here where we can make a bunch of money. So I’m guessing there’s some competition. What are you doing, marketing wise and sales wise to rise above all that noise? 

Paul Monasterio
Yeah, 100%. Oftentimes when I talk to new hires, after we extend them an offer, I have a conversation with a single person that we extend an offer to and I talk to them. I start with that. I started it’s a massive market. This problem is a hard problem. It hasn’t been solved, not because of lack of trying. It hasn’t been solved because it’s hard. So how do we succeed when others have not? And I think there are two core things. The first one is there’s a ton of hype. Anything touched by AI today is full of hype. And frankly, a lot of stuff that I see out there seems as if Chad GPT has been writing the announcements as opposed to actual real powerful dialogue of how we can leverage this technology to add real value. So one core component that we’re doing, both commercially from a go to market and a product standpoint, is that we need to make sure that we tie exactly what we’re doing with these models to real deliverables and change decisions and change measurable decisions that ultimately drive a business metric that is hard because it requires a lot of work on explainability. 

Paul Monasterio
It requires a lot of work in enabling the user to intelligently provide feedback to the model so the model gets better, and you have that reinforcement loop that is transparent, that is clear and making both the human and the machine better. So that’s a design challenge in addition to a technology challenge. But we spent a lot of effort there and speaking in those terms, and that resonated with our users and certainly with the leaders in the insurance industry that have been burning the past. They have been burning the past. That means sold promises of the latest technology that will transform everything, and ultimately it doesn’t. The second one, from a marketing standpoint, it’s interesting for us. Historically, we had really focused on demonstrating value quickly, and many solutions insurance take a lot of time to implement. You need to kind of get in the trenches, do some six month, that becomes three year implementation, and then you see value. 

Paul Monasterio
And we made a concerted effort this year to say, what is the minimum unit of value we can demonstrate for a client? So these days, for example, when we do a demo for a client, we ask them, just send us a submission. Send us a risk that just came to your desk. Let’s just do it on that, right? And there’s a wow moment when they can basically see, okay, this is not smoke and mirrors. This actually works and works for me. I’ve been in conversations where they pick up the phone and say, you need to make a different decision at this immediately. And you can imagine what that does for our traction. Similarly, we’re starting to work with smaller players that start like that, start as you go, crawl before you walk, before you run. And our ability to do that quickly, to deliver value in an hour, in a day, in an afternoon, in six months, has been helpful. 

Paul Monasterio
From a go to market standpoint. From a marketing standpoint, of course, and ultimately from a revenue standpoint. 

Brett
Now, based on your journey, let’s just pretend that you were starting the company over again from scratch. What would be the number one piece of advice you’d give to yourself? 

Paul Monasterio
There’s one piece of advice that I did not receive, I will give to myself. And I got lucky because it worked out well. You know how Y Combinator makes a really big deal of not doing solo founders? Probably people to get a Co-Founder and in the outside looking in. Before I became a Founder myself, I never made much of that. I think they have seen, hey, we find that teams with more than one Founder are more successful. As a Founder, I cannot emphasize that point enough. I mean, it’s been founding company has a lot of ups and downs and the solo journey will be tough. I’m really glad of the Co-Founder that I have embarked on this journey with and frankly, the team we have in place. So that’s one that for those who there’s been many successful solo founders. But frankly, I highly recommend bring someone else on the journey with you. 

Paul Monasterio
That’s going to be a big deal, a big help when they’re going get stuff. I mean, the second one there is really think very carefully in the early days who your early customers are and who your early investors are. A lot of people obviously focus on the early team members because they define the culture of the company. And that’s 100% true. And there’s a lot of material out there on how to think about that intelligently. But I oftentimes find that people think that carefully about their first customers. And it makes sense because getting their first customers is really hard. So you kind of just figure it out and you go through a random walk. But I think it is critical that those early customers share your vision. They’re always taking a bet on you, but it is critical that they can be helpful in setting up that strong foundation, well thought out, that can help you in a longer time scale. 

Paul Monasterio
We again got lucky there. But I do tell a lot of founders that I talk to that getting that first customer right is very important in actually getting to where they need to be. 

Brett
Final question here for you before we wrap. Let’s zoom out three to five years from today. Can you paint a picture for us? What is that vision that you’re building? 

Paul Monasterio
Ultimately, we find that this industry is massively important, right? Insurance. When insurance works well, it is an engine of innovation, right? If people don’t feel comfortable with taking risk because they don’t know who’s going to take care of them when things go sideways, they just don’t. So we think that when insurance works well, insurance serves a massive societal purpose. A much more poetic friend than me said, insurance is the umbrella that lets you dance under the ray. And I believe that’s very true. So what gets me up in the morning and what I’m excited that we’re able to achieve now and will in the next couple of years is doing that there’s that trillion dollars of insurance out there for businesses all over the world that need that insurance. And that is difficult for them to secure it and for the carriers to provide in a way that is efficient and profitable. 

Paul Monasterio
And we want to be the platform that enables the transformation of the insurance industry where five years from now, we have half, two thirds of that trillion dollar pie running through Kalepa, through Copilot and those decisions delivering massive value to the carriers and to the insurers, the businesses that are writing that are seeking that insurance because we believe that’s going to move society forward. 

Brett
I love the vision. All right, Paul, we are up on time, so we’ll have to wrap here before we wrap up, if any Founder listening in wants to follow along with your journey as you build and execute on this vision, where should they know? 

Paul Monasterio
First of all, our website, Kalepa.com, I mean, certainly that is our home base and we pretty much are on every social platform out there. I’m personally, of course, on Twitter. E-M-O-N-A-S-T-P monest. I think that was the number of characters I got back when I created my handle. And then Caleb, insurance pretty much everywhere on Twitter, Facebook threads now, as well as LinkedIn. 

Brett
Amazing. Paul, thank you so much for taking the time to chat, talk about what you’re building and share some of these valuable lessons that you’ve learned along the way so far. Really appreciate it and wish you best of luck in executing on this vision. 

Paul Monasterio
Absolutely great talking to you, Brett, and hope you have a terrific weekend. 

Brett
All right, keep in touch. This episode of Category Visionaries is brought to you by Front Lines Media, silicon Valley’s leading podcast production studio. If you’re a B2B Founder looking for help launching and growing your own podcast, visit frontlines.io podcast. And for the latest episode, search for Category Visionaries on your podcast platform of choice. Thanks for listening and we’ll catch you on the next episode.