The following interview is a conversation we had with Kalpesh Kapadia, CEO and Founder of Deserve, on our podcast Category Visionaries. You can view the full episode here: Building the Future of Credit Cards
Kalpesh Kapadia
Thanks, Brett. Looking forward to it.
Brett
Yeah. So let’s begin with just a quick summary of who you are and a bit more about your background.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Sure. So I grew up in a city called Mumbai, which used to be called Bombay. It’s the largest city india with over 20 million people. I grew up in educated, sort of middle class household where you’re expected to become an engineer or doctor when you grow up, if you’re smart. So that’s the path I chose. I did my undergraduate in mechanical engineering and industrial engineering. And you were told to study hard, play hard and do something with your life. So that’s my background. I have a younger brother who is also in business and my dad was a stockbroker.
Brett
How old were you when you moved to the US? What was that like for you? A 22 year old Kapesh flying on the plane from India to the US? What was going through your head?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Well, that was not the first time I left India.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So I had spent a few months in Hong Kong, few months in Singapore. So I kind of had this ambition to come to us, actually. Believe it or not, when I was growing up in 1980s India had strong ties with Russia and we set our first cosmonaut to space in early eighty s. And I became a member of russian library and doing russian math. And I thought America was this evil power. But as I grew older, I realized that this is where I want to be.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So I pivoted from Russia to come.
Kalpesh Kapadia
To America to study.
Brett
Probably turned out to be a good.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Yes. Yes, it did.
Brett
And where’d you go first? Did you go straight to Silicon Valley in San Francisco? Or did you go somewhere else first?
Kalpesh Kapadia
No.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So first five years I was on the east coast.
Kalpesh Kapadia
I did my master’s industrial engineering and operational research in New Jersey at NJIT. Then I worked for a year, and then did my MBA at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh, and then I worked in New York at Bear Stearns. And then I came over to California to work at an investment bank called Robertson Stevens. In 1999, at the height of the first Internet boom, what was that like.
Brett
For listeners who weren’t really active in business then? What was that Internet boom like from your perspective?
Kalpesh Kapadia
I think it was crazy.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Every week we would have a IPo party or few IPO parties, so people.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Would have calendars and maps, and it was just one giant party. And the valuations were very high. I remember I bought my first stock in Netscape after it went public, and it did very well. And sun, Microsystem, and others.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And then I started shorting stocks and.
Kalpesh Kapadia
I shorted Yahoo, AOL and Priceline in 99, and I got my face ripped.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Off because Yahoo was added to s.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And P 500 and double in a week. My entire paycheck would go to pay margin call. So that’s what it was like. And I think in March 2000, everything peaked, right? So I kind of caught the last sort of few months of party, if.
Brett
You will, a few other questions we like to ask. And the goal here is really just to better understand what makes you tick as a Founder. First one is what CEO and Founder do you admire the most and what do you admire about them?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Phil Knight from Nike. I just recently watched the movie air. I don’t know if you had a chance to catch it. About Michael Jordan and air.
Brett
Yeah, it’s so good.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And I think Ben Affleck plays him so well in the movie and obviously Matt Damon and others. But resiliency, tenacity, never give up.
Kalpesh Kapadia
That spirit I like about him.
Brett
What about books? And the way we like to frame this is we call it a quake book. So, a quake book is a book that rocks you to your core. It changes how you think about the world and how you approach life. Do any quake books come to mind?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Yeah, it’s a short book called art.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Of thinking clearly by Ralph Develli. And my second would be shoe dog, of course, outfield Knight. So art of thinking clearly is a book about 100 cognitive biases that we have as human beings and how to watch out for them and correct for them. And each chapter is three to four minutes long, so it’s not a long book, 100 chapters. I listen to them on audible. So that’s the book I have had greatest impact. And every time I’m making a cognitive error, I go back and check myself. Am I missing something here?
Brett
Nice?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Or do I have a bias.
Kalpesh Kapadia
This is one of the best books ever.
Brett
Amazing. I’ll have to check that out. I’ve not heard of that book and I haven’t read it yet, obviously. So I’ll have to add that to Amazon card here after the interview. Now let’s switch gears and let’s dive into the company. So can you just paint a picture for us at a very high level? What does deserve do?
Kalpesh Kapadia
The Deserve is one of the most modern credit card platforms and we describe.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Ourselves as the instagram to the Kodak.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Generation of the industry. So we are digital first, we are.
Kalpesh Kapadia
API driven, and we are in the.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Cloud, in the backend.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So think of it as a modern.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Infrastructure for credit card.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Credit cards serve three unique and distinct functions. In one, payments, rewards and loans.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And they haven’t been disrupted for a variety of reasons.
Kalpesh Kapadia
The infrastructure that 99% of the credit card runs today are built in 1990s or 80s, even cobalt mainframe batch processing.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Even the largest issuers like chase run on that.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Apple card was the first card which.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Showed what a modern experience could look like. And Apple card is really disrupting the industry and we are kind of the.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Apple card for everyone else.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So mobile first, digital first.
Kalpesh Kapadia
We believe that card is a software.
Kalpesh Kapadia
In a digital entity, not a plastic.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Or a metal card.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Once you untether the software or card number from plastic and metal, you can have a lot of possibilities around data, moving rewards, underwriting, managing your card, adding.
Kalpesh Kapadia
It to wallets and all sorts of things, right?
Kalpesh Kapadia
So think of it as know, it’s a cliche to describe this, but Steve Jobs said, if you get rid of.
Kalpesh Kapadia
The keyboard on the phone like BlackBerry.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Unless you have a big piece of glass, you can do a lot more.
Kalpesh Kapadia
When you get rid of the plastic, you can do a lot more with the car.
Brett
Why do you think the industry has been slow to change? Why is it still running on infrastructure from the.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Yeah, so when you look at the general managers or product owners of the card business in banks, because it’s dominated.
Kalpesh Kapadia
By large banks, right? The chase, the cities, the capital ones.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Of the world, they look at card.
Kalpesh Kapadia
As an interest rate and fee, product and revenue.
Kalpesh Kapadia
J is reported today, city reported today.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And the numbers are stupendous. And it’s all, at least in the.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Case of city, it was card related.
Kalpesh Kapadia
In case of American Express, it’s all card related.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So it’s a very profitable business for.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Them because they look at it as a fee generating and interest generating business.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So they don’t feel the pressure to.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Innovate unless someone else coming in and taking share of it from them.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Consumers are demanding from all other types.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Of apps outside of credit cards, like.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Uber for taxi, or doordash for food.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Delivery, or any of the other apps.
Kalpesh Kapadia
That you can think of. Every industry has adopted and embraced technology.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And mobile and APIs and cloud much.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Faster than the financial services industry.
Kalpesh Kapadia
It’s kind of the melting glaciers. It’s going to take a while. Up until two or three years ago, the likes of McKinsey’s and bcgs would talk about digital transformation. They’re not talking about large language models or APIs or just banks are still behind, if you will. And I read the statistics that by 2025, 75% of world’s cobalt programmers are either going to be retired or dead.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So you got this y two k.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Type problem in the making.
Kalpesh Kapadia
People are not talking about it.
Brett
Why do you think that is? Why would no one be talking about this? And how do you change that? Is that a conversation that you’re actively trying to drive and get the world to see that we have another potential disaster or major issue coming?
Kalpesh Kapadia
I think there has been some articles in popular press, but they believe that.
Kalpesh Kapadia
This is going to be fine. We would modernize one piece at a time. We’re still moving to the cloud, right? I mean, it’s been ten years, 15 years since cloud was launched. People are still moving. It’s taking sort of the on prem to cloud. It’s not cloud native, right? Companies that are cloud native are the facebooks of the world, the Googles of the world.
Kalpesh Kapadia
It’s not the banks. Banks are just taking data from on prem to cloud.
Kalpesh Kapadia
You don’t get the full benefit of the cloud.
Kalpesh Kapadia
But, yeah, you’re right that they’re not talking about it. And it’s like, nobody likes to talk about cobalt. It’s not sexy.
Brett
Now, can you take me back to 2013 when the company was first being formed? What were those early conversations like with you and colleagues and investors? And what was it about this problem? What did you observe in the market to say, yes, this is something that I want to dedicate the next ten plus years to solving?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Yeah. So I think the idea was born out of my personal problem, what I call Founder product fit. I came here as a student at trouble getting access to loans and credit. The things that you, as an american, take it for granted. And I thought that just because one lacks Social Security numbers or credit scores doesn’t mean they don’t exist in the system.
Kalpesh Kapadia
There has to be a better way to underwrite them. So we developed something called a self.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Score, which is a highly predictive version.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Of a FICO score eventually. So it had high correlation to your eventual FICO score, and it took into account your ability to pay, willingness to pay, your ability to hold on to a good job, things of that sort. So we did this alternative data, your bank account connection, where we can see your ins and outs from your bank account. How you use your bank account also is indicative of how you use credit.
Kalpesh Kapadia
If you have too many overdrafts, too many missed payments, you’re probably going to have this habit. So we built this core, and then were trying to commercialize the score. And everyone went to said, hey, here is the audience. People like me.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Now, you look at the top four.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Software ceos in the world are run by students who came here from India. Top four software companies, Microsoft Alphabet, Adobe and IBM. So you are acquiring this, tomorrow’s super prime customers today because they lack these markers of credit. You can acquire them for cheap and then you can grow with them.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Banks loved the idea, but nobody wanted to be first. People are like, oh, this is niche market. And what about this regulation? And what about this compliance? And what about this other thing? So we said, you know what?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Screw it.
Kalpesh Kapadia
We are going to do it on our own. We’re going to launch our own credit card and commercialize our score. So that’s how the company was born.
Brett
How long were you doing that?
Kalpesh Kapadia
We had a great success up until Trump got elected. We were on 1000 different colleges in the US. Customers from 100 different countries, as little as Nepal and Burkina Faso, and as large as China and India. So we made a name for ourselves.
Kalpesh Kapadia
We are the go to card for.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Students come here from all over the world. And then trump got elected, and people started questioning the immigration.
Kalpesh Kapadia
He’s going to shut the borders to.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Chinese and to middle eastern and all these things, right? And Indians. And we said, okay, the problem exists in college students in the US as well. It’s not just unique to people who.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Come fresh on the board, right?
Kalpesh Kapadia
So we expanded the audience to 18 to 29 college students and young professionals, and that went very well. We launched deserved.edu card and Deserve pro card. And around 2018, a couple of firms came to acquire us and we decided to go it alone. And Sally May, which is one of the largest student lender, became an investor in the company and.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Became a partner of Deserve.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And we helped them launch three different credit card products, one for students, one for recent graduates, and one for parents. And the value proposition was around paying off your student loans faster. You just saw today President Biden forgive 38 billion in student loans.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Once you’ve been paying for 20 years, 25 years, that’s a big stimulus for people. So that is a key value prop for the product. So that’s where the company sort of pivoted from direct to consumer to building card infrastructure for others.
Brett
What was it like making that pivot? Was that a painful pivot?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Oh, very painful.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Because you have sort of set up the company in one way where you are doing customer acquisition and direct to consumer marketing and a credit underwriting versus doing it for others, where you’re just providing product and technology infrastructure and they determine how to market the product, they determine how to underwrite the product. So it was a big change.
Brett
Is the company better off today because of that pivot? Do you think, or just part of you wish that it just would have remained a direct to consumer play?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Yeah, it is better off for sure, because it’s hard to compete with the likes of Chase and American Express.
Kalpesh Kapadia
What you would be doing is helping.
Kalpesh Kapadia
People like myself build good credit history and lose them to chase as a customer.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So you’re just creating a funnel for chase.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And this is a more defensible business model, so we are better off as a company.
Brett
Is it as fun what I’ve spoken about with other founders in the past, and they’ve done both businesses b to c and b to b, they say that b to c is a bit more fun. Do you feel that way or do you disagree?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Yeah, by nature, right. In one instance, you are behind the scene and it’s a very different sales motion, very different marketing and other is sort of, you see results every day, ins and outs, right? Whereas this is a long sales cycle.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And you seed a lot of efforts.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And see which ones sort of pan out versus consumer. You run some campaigns, you buy some list from credit bureaus and you send them invitation to apply.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And it’s a lot of fun.
Kalpesh Kapadia
You can have creative marketing messages around the card and why one should get it. We used to have a tagline that why get discovered when you deserve a Mastercard? Discover is one large player in the space.
Brett
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Brett
Can you tell us about growth and just give us some details there so we can understand the scale that you’re operating at today?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Yeah. So I’ll just keep it high level.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Where we pretty much double from 2019.
Kalpesh Kapadia
To 2020 to 2021 to 2022. And we have hundreds of thousands of.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Cards, hundreds of millions of dollars in spend on the platform per month.
Brett
What do you attribute to that success and that growth? Any Founder listening in is thinking, wow, that sounds nice. I’d like to see that kind of growth. What do you think you’ve gotten right?
Kalpesh Kapadia
What we got right was, in b to b, you need one of your customers to scale.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And that happened for us, and fortunately, and unfortunately, it happened in the crypto space.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So when crypto was hot, people love.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Their rewards in bitcoin. So that was one of the impetus for our growth. We have customers in the mortgage space, in the stock trading space.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So it’s just that you sort of.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Have a customer that scales quickly and you sort of ride the wave with that customer.
Brett
And let’s talk about the domain. So you own Deserve. That’s obviously a hot domain. What’s the backstory behind that? What I’ve found with a lot of companies with these very good quality domains, there’s always a story. Is there a story there?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Of course there is. So when were rebranding from self score, which we used to be called before to deserve, we hired an agency to do rebranding, and we zero d Deserve as a name.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Self score was how you get the card, right?
Kalpesh Kapadia
You get a score and you get the card. And Deserve was why you deserve this card, right? So from how to why? And then we did a scan of trademarks and things of that sort and website, and what we found out was that there was a lady in Tel Aviv, which she used to run, she still does, design Services, Inc. A furniture and architectural design shop. And she had deserved.com as a domain. In 99, I dabbled into trading domain names, and Internet was od.com was od. People were buying all sorts of domain names, right? So I had some connection in the space.
Kalpesh Kapadia
I reached out to one of them.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And said, hey, can you help me acquire this domain name for cheap? Because if I directly contact her, she’s going to want some crazy price. So he asked me, how much are.
Kalpesh Kapadia
You willing to pay?
Kalpesh Kapadia
I said, call it $25,000. Okay. Let me see what I can do. And he reached out to her and along the old she agreed. She asked for three months to transition all the activity, all the email and everything else from the website and everything else from Deserve. He said, you know what, we’ll give you 5000 more to just transition it in a week.
Kalpesh Kapadia
She did that.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And then my broker who was buying the name from me, he asked me if he can sell it for $250,000. And I’m like, no, we want to use it. He said, I did exact same thing where a real estate leasing company had a name release. I bought it from them and sold it to release software and made quarter million dollars. So that’s a backstory on the domain.
Brett
Nice. I always love hearing those. Now I know you talked about the pivot there in 2018 and the pain that came there. Are there any other near death experiences that you’ve had throughout the company’s history where it just got really tough and you weren’t sure if the company was going to make it through?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Oh, it just happened. End of last year, as I mentioned, were powering the crypto credit card for blockfi. And in the FTX debacle blockfi got caught up and they filed for bankruptcy. And we had number of cards that were live in the market. Do some damage control. So I’m still dealing with it, believe it or not. But we are at the tail end of that pain.
Brett
And do you feel like a seasoned crisis manager now with these cris hit? Do you have a plan? Are you able to manage it well? Or what’s it like for you when you face these types of challenges?
Kalpesh Kapadia
It’s very stressful. It’s very stressful. As a Founder, I’ll be honest with you. It’s fun when it’s going great. It’s not fun when it’s not going great, but you just have to take it. No cuts, no glory, right? I give this talk to my college students in my alma mater at Carney Mellon. And I have a slide deck which talks about entrepreneurship class, talks about starting a company is like giving a birth to a child. And there are so many parallels to that.
Kalpesh Kapadia
I start with the first slide.
Kalpesh Kapadia
When you say ideas are like the.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Sperms on the mind, millions floating around and only few of them fertilized. And the second slide is about you can’t produce a baby in one month by getting nine women pregnant. That’s a quote from Warren Buffett.
Kalpesh Kapadia
It just takes time. You have to go through it. And then I talk about sort of Tuckman. Model forming, storming, norming, performing.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And how you build the teams. And I think Michael Jordan said it once.
Kalpesh Kapadia
He’s one of my favorite sports personalities. Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championship. So, yeah, I think there the personal qualities that you need in an entrepreneur is persistence and resilience. And persistence and resilience only come from having been given a chance to work through difficult problems.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Life doesn’t get easier or more forgiving. We just get stronger and more resilient.
Brett
I love that. Now, let’s talk a little bit about funding. So, as I mentioned there in the intro, there’s been $150,000,000 raised so far. I know there’s also a much larger amount that’s been raised in debt. And I also saw on the website that you have some really amazing investors. So you mentioned Sally May there. You also have Mastercard, you have Visa, you have Goldman Sachs. So I’d love to talk about that. Specifically, how did you go about landing such amazing strategic partners and strategic investors like that?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Yeah, so I talked about Sally May.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And then Goldman Sachs was entering the credit card space with Apple Card, right. And they believe that there is room for more players to modernize the infrastructure and offer card as a service. And they have investment arms. And they reached out to us and they became our investor at the end of 2019. And then we had a full sort of pipeline and bd strategy to go after and win Cobrand deals and win bank deals like Sally May and then Covid hit in March 2020.
Kalpesh Kapadia
And world kind of shut down for an extended period of time. So we had raised capital and were like, okay, let’s do something strategic.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Because nobody is actually building new credit card programs because they don’t know when the world would open. They don’t want to launch products in the middle of pandemic.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So went and built technology partnership with Mastercard, with Visa. That led to both of them investing in the company at the same time, which is very rare for both these players because they both want something that shouldn’t give the other one.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So we remained sort of the Switzerland, the neutral party here, and we landed them as investors. And Ally bank, which has a venture arm called Ally Ventures, they also invested in same time.
Brett
What have you learned about fundraising throughout this past ten or eleven years?
Kalpesh Kapadia
What have I learned? I think you need to be a great storyteller. You need to back it up with numbers. You need to raise more than you need, because you’ll need more than you expect. Those are some of the things that I need to execute.
Brett
Storytelling is something that we hear a lot from founders and from investors. When I ask them about the skills that they look for, did that come naturally for you? Are you a naturally good storyteller or has that been a skill that you’ve had to really nurture and improve over the course of your career?
Kalpesh Kapadia
I like to believe I’m a good storyteller. What do you think? Last half an hour?
Brett
So far so good.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Yeah, but you have to refine it. You have to refine it. You have to constantly work on it. And I read a lot. I read lots of all sorts of subjects.
Kalpesh Kapadia
I mean, now I’m hooked on to, I’m sure everyone else’s to Chat GPT it’s just amazing how much information is out there and how quickly you have access to all the information.
Brett
Do you view Chad GBT or generative AI is going to have an impact on deserve at all in a positive or negative way? Like is that on your radar of future products or things to bake into the product?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Yes, I think these models require data. And if you feed structured, unstructured data, you can build delinquency models, you can build transaction fraud models, you can build propensity models.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So clearly, if you take data from.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Customer service call recording, you can build models on top of that.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So in all sorts of ways you.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Can make your product smarter with these LLM and generative AI.
Brett
And moving into the final couple of questions for you based on your journey so far, if you were starting the company again today from scratch, what would be the number one piece of advice you’d give to yourself?
Kalpesh Kapadia
Don’t be in lending business because it’s hard. And it goes back to my earlier point as banks view this as a lending product and it is a lending. Like all fintech startups, eventually, one way or the other, are lending. And if you can avoid that and become more and more software product, you get higher valuation, less hicks, that’s regulation, less compliance, right?
Brett
I don’t know if it’s accurate, but I think I read online that Goldman is trying to end the partnership with Apple. And I’m a big Apple user. I love my Apple card. I’ve been using it now for like a year and I love the product and it’s so great. Why do you think that partnership is going to end? Or is that not even accurate? I’m based on like, I think I read an article mentioning something like that, but that could be inaccurate.
Kalpesh Kapadia
I read it too. In the Wall Street Journal, in Bloomberg, in an american banker number of articles. I think it’s public knowledge that consumer strategy is hard. You need to be in there for ten years before you see profits, right? And when you have other divisions that are making money head over fist, you sort of have to justify why you are in this business, which is low. Roe comes with credit losses, right. And it is a scale business.
Kalpesh Kapadia
So a number of things that sort.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Of, while it’s sexy, right, when you look at Apple launched iPhone on at and T, I still remember standing in line on day one, Steve Jobs came into the store to greet everyone. Since that day at and T stock has gone down over the last 1516 years, right. Because Apple captured all the profits, they still capture 120% of the industry’s profit. So many of these large brands, there is sort of a buyer’s remorse where you agreed to become a partner, like Amazon or Apple, do you think they let you make money? So there are a variety of reasons for that.
Brett
Interesting. Now, final question here, since we’re almost up on time, and I know it’s an end of day on Friday, so I want to hold you, keep you over here. Last question is about the vision going forward. So can you just paint a picture for us? What do you want deserve to look like three to five years from today?
Kalpesh Kapadia
I want deserve to be the best credit card infrastructure company that is expanding globally and providing superior consumer experience and better partner experience that allows for them to grow more accounts, keep the cart top of wallet, reduce the cost of service.
Brett
Amazing. I love the vision. Well, I think that’s all we’re going to have time for today. Before we wrap, if any Founder listening in wants to follow along with your journey as you build and execute on this vision and keep building up this company, where should they go?
Kalpesh Kapadia
They can go to deserve or all.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Our sort of social media presence.
Brett
Are you active on social as well? Are you posting on Twitter or LinkedIn or anything? Or is it more just the company updates there?
Kalpesh Kapadia
I post on LinkedIn. I post on Twitter.
Brett
I’ll make sure to link to those in the show notes. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I really enjoyed this conversation. It was a lot of fun. It was fun learning from you and yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for taking the time.
Kalpesh Kapadia
Thanks, Pat.
Brett
All right, take care.
Brett
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Brett
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Brett
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